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on this episode of skeptico

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grief

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and a movie about how some very clever

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scientists including some frontier

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scientists that you may have heard on

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this show before have found a way to

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combat it

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that whole year

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after i found out what happened was just

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a blur i don't remember it

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i think maybe subconsciously i

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suppressed it

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because i didn't know how to deal with

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it or i didn't want to accept what had

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happened

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but she was a mess

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the movie is titled living with ghosts

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and in a minute you'll hear my interview

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with the movie's creator stephen berkley

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it's a movie about science consciousness

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science as well as being a movie about

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grief and a movie about how families can

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become entangled in this battle with

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grief including stephen's own family

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here's a clip and at the end of it

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you'll hear his one and only very brief

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appearance in the film where he's

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talking to his mom and he's very

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concerned because his mom is considering

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this very wacky after death

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communication thing

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we're used to getting better we're being

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you know sold all kinds of stuff

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to make us better but nothing prepares

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us for when it doesn't that's my

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business mom if you're living alone

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having conversations with ghosts that's

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my business too

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family stuff is tough we all get that

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here's a clip from my upcoming interview

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where stephen describes how the whole

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thing got started

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what happened was my dad died my dad it

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was about 10 years ago my father passed

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and my mom pretty much she fell apart

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we did everything we could we got her

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into a support group grief counselor got

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her own therapist

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and

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nothing really did the trick uh nothing

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was really helping her get through it at

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all

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fortunately she had a neighbor who's a

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very sweet woman came over

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and said you know irene

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i

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but

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i correspond with my husband my late

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husband i i write to him every night

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it really helps

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and he writes back

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and my mother was like what

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you know and my brothers were actually

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pretty upset by this too because who is

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this kooky woman that's come over and is

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now accosting our mother with this offer

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now as you're about to hear in this

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interview and what you'll see when you

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watch this movie is that this automatic

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writing thing they're talking about

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turns out to be just one way of

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accessing this after death communication

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process that we don't fully understand

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but some very good scientists like dr

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jan holden from the university of north

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texas

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can measure

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the important thing is what what jan did

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was she said okay let's compare

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al botkin is the one who made the

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discovery that this emdr therapy that

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was used for the

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vietnam vets when he was working in

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chicago vet hospital

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that could work for grief because by

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accident he discovered that one of his

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one of his clients or patients where he

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was administering this emdr therapy

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they had an adc and after death

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communication he's the one that

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discovered it what jan holden did was he

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she said okay let's compare let's

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compare this iadc therapy to traditional

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grief counseling and see what works

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better

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it wasn't really a fair contest actually

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because nobody gets better from grief

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counseling it turns out it just doesn't

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work

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but

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with this iedc therapy the success rate

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is close to around 70 80 percent

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that's mind-blowing compared to any

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therapy that's ridiculous

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so as you might suspect from that last

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little clip this interview takes us down

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some interesting paths in terms of why

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the science we have is married to

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therapy that has proven not to work but

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the main story really is a therapy that

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does work and the implications for it in

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terms of helping people who are

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suffering grief and

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the larger implications in terms of what

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that means about our place within the

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consciousness universe the extended

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consciousness the greater reality that

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we are here with in

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this is a great movie in so many ways i

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really hope you find a way to watch it

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here's my interview with stephen berkley

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welcome to skeptico where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics i'm your host alex sacaris

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and today we welcome stephen berkley to

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skeptico

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steven is a very talented filmmaker he

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has an extraordinary new film out it's

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already won multiple awards as you can

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see if you're looking at the screen it's

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destined to win many more

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it's titled living with ghosts and the

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subtitle science weighs in

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on the healing power of after death

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communication

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stephen congratulations on your new film

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welcome welcome to skeptico thanks for

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joining me

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thank you alex good to be here

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tell us about yourself i mean

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th this project

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if anyone watches the film it's

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very very well done it's top top-notch

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filmmaking who are you to make such a

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film and then the amount of effort i

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mean this is years in the making

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so tell us about the filmmaking part of

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this about yourself and

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how do you how do you do this how you

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sustain this effort for as long as you

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did well i'm glad you asked me that

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question alex because i am not a veteran

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filmmaker

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uh this is my first feature film as a

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matter of fact

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my co-writer co-producer is christopher

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seaward who's better known for

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fahrenheit 911 and sicko

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and he's the award-winning filmmaker i'm

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just a guy to his left

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so

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it's my idea it's my concept it's my

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family that's in the film

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but he's really the craftsman so i

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really want to give him credit right out

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the door that's great so tell us about

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your personal involvement in this

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topic how do you do that

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what happened was my dad died my dad it

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was about 10 years ago my father passed

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and my mom pretty much she fell apart

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understandably so she had been by his

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side for 60 years

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and

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florida where she lived we did

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everything we could we brought her got

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her into a support group grief counselor

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got her own therapist

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and

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nothing really did the trick

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nothing was really helping her get

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through it at all

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fortunately she had a neighbor uh who's

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a very sweet woman came over

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and said you know irene

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i been doing this thing we haven't

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talked about this much

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but

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i correspond with my husband my late

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husband i i write to him every night

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it really helps

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and he writes back

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and my mother was like what

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you know and my brothers were actually

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pretty upset by this too because who is

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this kooky woman that's come over and is

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now accosting our mother with this offer

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it was a kind of a radical suggestion

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for all of us

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and my mother was not in a place where

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she could digest that at all

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but i was kind of interested and i was i

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followed her back over to her house and

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i just had a conversation with her

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and she showed me a stack of yellow

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legal pads where she is basically her

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correspondence with her husband over 12

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years her dead husband for 12 years and

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i was like okay this is really kooky but

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i'm kind of digging it you know i just

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enjoyed talking to this woman

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she was

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very i was looking for like uh

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cracks to see like what was going on is

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she is she schizophrenic like what's her

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story

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but just in conversation she was just

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trying to be just a very charming nice

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woman very grounded very for real

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and was not trying to sell me anything

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she was just this is just something that

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she did and she was sharing it with my

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mother

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have a better time

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getting through and to the other side

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right so that that's how it all started

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let's frame that up in terms of the

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movie because this is kind of how the

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movie plays out so it's kind of a good

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backstory i still can't quite wrap my

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head around you're down talking to your

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mom in boca raton florida and

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it's like

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gosh you know there's so many different

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layers of this grief thing

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that people who've been through it you

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know it's like a horrible thing once

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you've been through it and experienced

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it then you can relate to it and people

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who haven't can't

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but you know as a family you're grieving

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for your mom's grieving and all that

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stuff but then

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you know you gotta admit stephen so

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you're prompted to go to the neighbor's

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house and look at the legal pads and

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then that sends you on a seven-year

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project cross-crossing the country

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interviews with some of the top leading

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researchers in after death communication

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researchers in consciousness just

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extraordinary list of kind of who's who

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in this field i mean

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that it's not either destiny or it's

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a kind of dogged determination that you

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just can't imagine

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i i wasn't really interested in the

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consciousness part of it at that time

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i just felt here's this my mother who's

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really having a tough time and her

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friend and bridge partner ethel who is

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having this conversation ongoing

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conversation with her husband her late

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husband

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and i just thought it was cute i thought

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it was cute that these two women this

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odd couple

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are having two very different

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experiences in grief and i also thought

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ethel's story the one who was doing the

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automatic writing was just romantic

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i wasn't really paying so much attention

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to what she was doing or the very

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similitude of what she was doing

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i just thought it was adorable

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and that's really how it started

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and so i started interviewing other

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widows in my mother's community first i

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interviewed my mother she was my first

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interview then i interviewed ethel and

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then there was like

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four or five other widows in their orbit

284
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there was no

285
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were no widowers because the women were

286
00:10:55,750 --> 00:10:54,240
outliving the men by about eight or nine

287
00:10:57,430 --> 00:10:55,760
years

288
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so

289
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in these conversations with these other

290
00:11:04,949 --> 00:11:02,800
widows i also found that

291
00:11:07,910 --> 00:11:04,959
they were all having some kind of

292
00:11:10,710 --> 00:11:07,920
relationship with their deceased husband

293
00:11:12,150 --> 00:11:10,720
it wasn't as overt typically as ethel's

294
00:11:14,389 --> 00:11:12,160
experience they weren't automatic

295
00:11:17,030 --> 00:11:14,399
writing but they were doing something to

296
00:11:19,430 --> 00:11:17,040
honor the memory of their husbands

297
00:11:21,509 --> 00:11:19,440
and some of them were engaging a little

298
00:11:23,590 --> 00:11:21,519
bit here and there with the unseen one

299
00:11:26,389 --> 00:11:23,600
was going practicing kabbalah for

300
00:11:28,069 --> 00:11:26,399
instance and she claims that she could

301
00:11:31,110 --> 00:11:28,079
smell her husband in the house used to

302
00:11:32,550 --> 00:11:31,120
smoke cigars and she says that

303
00:11:34,230 --> 00:11:32,560
she smells cigar smoke and maybe that

304
00:11:35,750 --> 00:11:34,240
was his way of saying hello but there's

305
00:11:37,110 --> 00:11:35,760
nobody else that smokes cigars in the

306
00:11:39,030 --> 00:11:37,120
house now

307
00:11:41,350 --> 00:11:39,040
but she would get that sense

308
00:11:42,389 --> 00:11:41,360
and another one actually saw her late

309
00:11:44,630 --> 00:11:42,399
husband

310
00:11:47,350 --> 00:11:44,640
and she actually made it into the film

311
00:11:48,630 --> 00:11:47,360
but they were having these experiences

312
00:11:51,110 --> 00:11:48,640
and that's when i started doing a little

313
00:11:52,790 --> 00:11:51,120
bit of research and found out that these

314
00:11:56,150 --> 00:11:52,800
kind of experiences

315
00:11:59,030 --> 00:11:56,160
are not uncommon well they're beyond not

316
00:12:01,350 --> 00:11:59,040
uncommon as you flash up on the screen

317
00:12:04,949 --> 00:12:01,360
at one point during the interview

318
00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:04,959
studies that are done of people who are

319
00:12:09,430 --> 00:12:07,120
experiencing the loss of a loved one

320
00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:09,440
who's been in their life for a long time

321
00:12:12,870 --> 00:12:10,480
like 80

322
00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:12,880
of them experience after death

323
00:12:16,949 --> 00:12:14,880
communication so the real

324
00:12:19,110 --> 00:12:16,959
irony is that you know this is

325
00:12:21,829 --> 00:12:19,120
completely denied

326
00:12:25,829 --> 00:12:21,839
not only by science which we can kind of

327
00:12:27,829 --> 00:12:25,839
go into but by the healing community you

328
00:12:29,590 --> 00:12:27,839
know the people that are supposed to be

329
00:12:32,629 --> 00:12:29,600
charged with

330
00:12:34,870 --> 00:12:32,639
exactly this job of helping people

331
00:12:38,550 --> 00:12:34,880
through grief helping people through

332
00:12:40,790 --> 00:12:38,560
trauma so how they are unaware of this

333
00:12:44,310 --> 00:12:40,800
science which you reveal so beautifully

334
00:12:47,190 --> 00:12:44,320
in the in the film and you unfurl in the

335
00:12:50,710 --> 00:12:47,200
film in just a terrific way i i think

336
00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:50,720
the film's treatment of skeptics is

337
00:12:57,030 --> 00:12:54,160
just the best i've seen in almost any

338
00:12:58,470 --> 00:12:57,040
film of this kind or related

339
00:13:01,190 --> 00:12:58,480
paranormal

340
00:13:02,949 --> 00:13:01,200
consciousness stuff than i can remember

341
00:13:06,230 --> 00:13:02,959
and that's because

342
00:13:09,509 --> 00:13:06,240
you let the skeptics talk to people and

343
00:13:10,629 --> 00:13:09,519
then just reveal how completely idiotic

344
00:13:13,829 --> 00:13:10,639
they are

345
00:13:16,790 --> 00:13:13,839
i mean you see people you you see these

346
00:13:19,430 --> 00:13:16,800
therapists just denying

347
00:13:21,430 --> 00:13:19,440
the experience of an individual right

348
00:13:23,670 --> 00:13:21,440
before their face and then they're calm

349
00:13:25,509 --> 00:13:23,680
about it and they go well you just don't

350
00:13:27,670 --> 00:13:25,519
know what you're talking about quite you

351
00:13:29,590 --> 00:13:27,680
know politely you just don't know what

352
00:13:33,430 --> 00:13:29,600
you're talking about here's i just

353
00:13:35,750 --> 00:13:33,440
pulled up you know roger z samuel who is

354
00:13:38,389 --> 00:13:35,760
featured in the film and just does a

355
00:13:41,750 --> 00:13:38,399
marvelous job of playing the role of the

356
00:13:44,310 --> 00:13:41,760
idiotic psychologist psychiatrist he's a

357
00:13:45,829 --> 00:13:44,320
forensic psychologist just a complete

358
00:13:49,189 --> 00:13:45,839
joke in terms of

359
00:13:52,230 --> 00:13:49,199
he just looks he looks silly and you do

360
00:13:55,350 --> 00:13:52,240
that in a way that allows

361
00:13:57,269 --> 00:13:55,360
these folks to just say it in their own

362
00:13:59,509 --> 00:13:57,279
words and then you contrast that with

363
00:14:01,990 --> 00:13:59,519
someone like dr jan holden from the

364
00:14:03,829 --> 00:14:02,000
university of north texas who's been on

365
00:14:06,310 --> 00:14:03,839
the show a couple times fantastic

366
00:14:08,150 --> 00:14:06,320
researcher very competent person who

367
00:14:10,150 --> 00:14:08,160
just sums it all up just by with this

368
00:14:11,990 --> 00:14:10,160
kind of rye little grin and goes well

369
00:14:14,389 --> 00:14:12,000
they just don't know the research

370
00:14:16,629 --> 00:14:14,399
they're not scientists they haven't

371
00:14:18,629 --> 00:14:16,639
stayed up on the art they just don't

372
00:14:20,150 --> 00:14:18,639
know what they're talking about but i

373
00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:20,160
love the way

374
00:14:25,269 --> 00:14:22,800
you let the skeptics

375
00:14:27,110 --> 00:14:25,279
talk to real people because a lot of

376
00:14:29,110 --> 00:14:27,120
times when skeptics are talking to

377
00:14:31,910 --> 00:14:29,120
scientists somebody like jeffrey kripal

378
00:14:33,870 --> 00:14:31,920
who's featured in the film then there's

379
00:14:36,069 --> 00:14:33,880
like this automatic

380
00:14:37,910 --> 00:14:36,079
antagonistic kind of thing but when

381
00:14:40,550 --> 00:14:37,920
they're talking to real people they look

382
00:14:42,710 --> 00:14:40,560
just especially ridiculous do you have

383
00:14:44,949 --> 00:14:42,720
any any thoughts on that or did you see

384
00:14:45,829 --> 00:14:44,959
that as it was kind of unfolding in the

385
00:14:47,829 --> 00:14:45,839
film

386
00:14:50,069 --> 00:14:47,839
well first well thank you by the way for

387
00:14:51,990 --> 00:14:50,079
all those compliments i appreciate that

388
00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:52,000
the psychiatrist in the film roger

389
00:14:57,030 --> 00:14:54,320
samuel was just being a psychiatrist i

390
00:14:58,949 --> 00:14:57,040
don't want to call him idiotic uh he was

391
00:15:00,710 --> 00:14:58,959
doing he that was his training his

392
00:15:02,150 --> 00:15:00,720
training was to say okay

393
00:15:04,150 --> 00:15:02,160
i'm going to ask you if you were doing

394
00:15:05,670 --> 00:15:04,160
crack and that's what led you to this

395
00:15:06,470 --> 00:15:05,680
experience you're having

396
00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:06,480
so

397
00:15:15,269 --> 00:15:13,040
heard you do on other shows which is

398
00:15:16,550 --> 00:15:15,279
these people don't actually believe what

399
00:15:18,710 --> 00:15:16,560
they're saying i'm talking about the

400
00:15:21,590 --> 00:15:18,720
debunkers right now like you'll you'll

401
00:15:23,430 --> 00:15:21,600
talk about the debunkers and you can't

402
00:15:25,750 --> 00:15:23,440
you don't believe that they actually

403
00:15:28,069 --> 00:15:25,760
believe what they're saying they are

404
00:15:30,389 --> 00:15:28,079
cynical in the truest sense in that they

405
00:15:32,870 --> 00:15:30,399
are just interested in their own

406
00:15:34,550 --> 00:15:32,880
maintaining their own uh status quo

407
00:15:36,470 --> 00:15:34,560
whatever that is

408
00:15:37,829 --> 00:15:36,480
i will i will say that

409
00:15:39,189 --> 00:15:37,839
if i was going to challenge you i would

410
00:15:41,189 --> 00:15:39,199
say that

411
00:15:42,949 --> 00:15:41,199
they're not

412
00:15:45,430 --> 00:15:42,959
they just want to be comfortable people

413
00:15:46,710 --> 00:15:45,440
in general want to be comfortable with

414
00:15:48,310 --> 00:15:46,720
what they believe

415
00:15:49,910 --> 00:15:48,320
and they want to be comfortable what

416
00:15:51,350 --> 00:15:49,920
they purport

417
00:15:52,150 --> 00:15:51,360
and

418
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:52,160
uh

419
00:15:56,310 --> 00:15:54,480
the skeptics in the film

420
00:15:58,629 --> 00:15:56,320
there's a couple of debunkers i'll just

421
00:16:00,230 --> 00:15:58,639
flash on the screen every now and again

422
00:16:02,550 --> 00:16:00,240
to remind people like who these

423
00:16:04,710 --> 00:16:02,560
debunkers are and what they're saying

424
00:16:06,629 --> 00:16:04,720
i believe they believe this is just my

425
00:16:08,949 --> 00:16:06,639
personal opinion i believe they believe

426
00:16:10,710 --> 00:16:08,959
what they're saying i believe that they

427
00:16:12,310 --> 00:16:10,720
believe in materialism

428
00:16:15,670 --> 00:16:12,320
and they're just

429
00:16:17,670 --> 00:16:15,680
and yes they probably are protecting

430
00:16:20,069 --> 00:16:17,680
their profession or their industry or

431
00:16:22,389 --> 00:16:20,079
the way or their world view

432
00:16:25,110 --> 00:16:22,399
but that's and that's what most of us do

433
00:16:26,310 --> 00:16:25,120
right i mean look at all the people who

434
00:16:27,509 --> 00:16:26,320
are

435
00:16:29,910 --> 00:16:27,519
denying

436
00:16:32,550 --> 00:16:29,920
that their spouse is cheating on them

437
00:16:35,590 --> 00:16:32,560
they can't even they can't even go there

438
00:16:37,829 --> 00:16:35,600
they know it on some subconscious level

439
00:16:38,550 --> 00:16:37,839
but they can't bring themselves

440
00:16:43,030 --> 00:16:38,560
to

441
00:16:45,749 --> 00:16:43,040
disruptive they got a kid they got work

442
00:16:47,829 --> 00:16:45,759
to go to they can't think about that and

443
00:16:50,230 --> 00:16:47,839
i think a lot of these debunkers

444
00:16:51,749 --> 00:16:50,240
or even the psychiatrist they can't

445
00:16:53,030 --> 00:16:51,759
think about the possibility of this

446
00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:53,040
other realm

447
00:16:57,670 --> 00:16:55,600
well of course they can and you're just

448
00:16:59,829 --> 00:16:57,680
letting them off the hook for no good

449
00:17:02,230 --> 00:16:59,839
reason i mean

450
00:17:04,630 --> 00:17:02,240
roger samuel md

451
00:17:07,189 --> 00:17:04,640
has a responsibility

452
00:17:10,069 --> 00:17:07,199
his responsibility is to know his

453
00:17:13,029 --> 00:17:10,079
science to know the current artwork i

454
00:17:15,429 --> 00:17:13,039
mean if if he was working with someone

455
00:17:17,189 --> 00:17:15,439
who was gay

456
00:17:18,390 --> 00:17:17,199
and he was

457
00:17:23,429 --> 00:17:18,400
completely

458
00:17:25,429 --> 00:17:23,439
tied to what the dsm-3 said or dsm4 i

459
00:17:27,110 --> 00:17:25,439
forget before they changed it that you

460
00:17:29,270 --> 00:17:27,120
have a psychological disorder and that

461
00:17:31,270 --> 00:17:29,280
you're you know we would be up in arms

462
00:17:33,669 --> 00:17:31,280
we would go oh my god how can he be so

463
00:17:35,909 --> 00:17:33,679
completely out of sync with the current

464
00:17:38,070 --> 00:17:35,919
science the current state of his field

465
00:17:39,990 --> 00:17:38,080
yet why do you want to make apologies

466
00:17:41,909 --> 00:17:40,000
for the guy who just

467
00:17:43,510 --> 00:17:41,919
what because he's stuck in a world view

468
00:17:45,430 --> 00:17:43,520
we're supposed to feel sorry for him i

469
00:17:47,830 --> 00:17:45,440
don't feel sorry for him at all i feel

470
00:17:49,190 --> 00:17:47,840
sorry for his patients who have to

471
00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:49,200
endure his

472
00:17:55,510 --> 00:17:52,480
nonsense his lack of deep thinking in

473
00:17:58,390 --> 00:17:55,520
his lack of of really scholarship and

474
00:18:00,789 --> 00:17:58,400
and professionalism about knowing you

475
00:18:02,870 --> 00:18:00,799
know what to do there's i agree alex i

476
00:18:04,870 --> 00:18:02,880
agree that these professionals

477
00:18:07,190 --> 00:18:04,880
especially medical health professionals

478
00:18:09,270 --> 00:18:07,200
need to be up on the science no question

479
00:18:11,510 --> 00:18:09,280
i was just really talking about

480
00:18:13,750 --> 00:18:11,520
i wanted to contrast something you have

481
00:18:15,590 --> 00:18:13,760
said in other shows about the debunkers

482
00:18:17,909 --> 00:18:15,600
specifically and they're going around

483
00:18:20,150 --> 00:18:17,919
saying this doesn't exist and you were

484
00:18:21,750 --> 00:18:20,160
saying that well they don't they can't

485
00:18:23,909 --> 00:18:21,760
believe that they can't be faced with

486
00:18:25,750 --> 00:18:23,919
this information and still say that i

487
00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:25,760
say they can believe it because they

488
00:18:29,669 --> 00:18:27,760
want to believe it like most of us

489
00:18:31,750 --> 00:18:29,679
we want to believe what makes us feel

490
00:18:33,190 --> 00:18:31,760
comfortable well i don't know exactly

491
00:18:35,830 --> 00:18:33,200
what you're referring to in the other

492
00:18:37,270 --> 00:18:35,840
shows but i i think we have to make a

493
00:18:39,510 --> 00:18:37,280
distinction there and i wasn't going to

494
00:18:41,510 --> 00:18:39,520
get into this because it's my usual

495
00:18:43,669 --> 00:18:41,520
kind of skeptical thing that kind of

496
00:18:45,830 --> 00:18:43,679
goes a little bit off target especially

497
00:18:47,990 --> 00:18:45,840
with your film but it's like yeah of

498
00:18:49,270 --> 00:18:48,000
course there's the useful idiots who

499
00:18:51,990 --> 00:18:49,280
follow

500
00:18:54,230 --> 00:18:52,000
the party line and are just propagating

501
00:18:57,029 --> 00:18:54,240
nonsense and they believe it that

502
00:18:58,549 --> 00:18:57,039
doesn't matter the the larger question i

503
00:19:01,750 --> 00:18:58,559
think that we currently have to

504
00:19:04,150 --> 00:19:01,760
especially ask in this situation is

505
00:19:06,310 --> 00:19:04,160
and i think your film comes close to

506
00:19:08,710 --> 00:19:06,320
asking it in some ways maybe that you're

507
00:19:11,990 --> 00:19:08,720
not even totally aware of is

508
00:19:13,909 --> 00:19:12,000
is the systematic denial

509
00:19:15,190 --> 00:19:13,919
of this science which is at this point

510
00:19:19,110 --> 00:19:15,200
overwhelming like the science

511
00:19:21,669 --> 00:19:19,120
unconsciousness is overwhelming the the

512
00:19:23,190 --> 00:19:21,679
science on after death communication is

513
00:19:26,230 --> 00:19:23,200
overwhelming

514
00:19:28,150 --> 00:19:26,240
can we really chalk up the entire denial

515
00:19:29,430 --> 00:19:28,160
of that across the board across all the

516
00:19:32,230 --> 00:19:29,440
skeptics

517
00:19:33,750 --> 00:19:32,240
as just being well gosh darn it you know

518
00:19:36,230 --> 00:19:33,760
they're just kind of stuck in their

519
00:19:39,110 --> 00:19:36,240
dogma when in particular again as your

520
00:19:41,590 --> 00:19:39,120
film points out they have such a vested

521
00:19:44,230 --> 00:19:41,600
interest if like the way you brought it

522
00:19:46,789 --> 00:19:44,240
out in the film which was even clearer

523
00:19:49,270 --> 00:19:46,799
is i think it's jeff cripel when you

524
00:19:53,430 --> 00:19:49,280
talk about religion and you talk about

525
00:19:56,070 --> 00:19:53,440
why would religion possibly give an inch

526
00:19:58,070 --> 00:19:56,080
to the idea of after death communication

527
00:19:59,190 --> 00:19:58,080
because when they do they've seeded

528
00:20:03,110 --> 00:19:59,200
control

529
00:20:05,430 --> 00:20:03,120
want to be the intermediary of your

530
00:20:07,510 --> 00:20:05,440
transcendent experiences all your ex

531
00:20:10,310 --> 00:20:07,520
your spiritual experience they want to

532
00:20:12,230 --> 00:20:10,320
be the intermediary of the most

533
00:20:13,270 --> 00:20:12,240
important experience you can have on in

534
00:20:16,149 --> 00:20:13,280
life

535
00:20:16,870 --> 00:20:16,159
science is in the same game man and and

536
00:20:19,270 --> 00:20:16,880
you

537
00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:19,280
talk about it in the film science cannot

538
00:20:24,390 --> 00:20:22,000
say well gee you know we really got our

539
00:20:26,789 --> 00:20:24,400
our hands around everything oh except

540
00:20:29,909 --> 00:20:26,799
the thing that's most important to you

541
00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:29,919
yeah we really don't got that at all so

542
00:20:33,990 --> 00:20:31,760
that's where i'm coming from on that of

543
00:20:35,590 --> 00:20:34,000
of course there's the useful idiot

544
00:20:37,110 --> 00:20:35,600
skeptic in debunker but that's not

545
00:20:39,590 --> 00:20:37,120
really the one we care about we care

546
00:20:41,750 --> 00:20:39,600
about is there someone behind there

547
00:20:43,590 --> 00:20:41,760
behind the curtain that is directing

548
00:20:45,270 --> 00:20:43,600
things in a certain way well there

549
00:20:48,310 --> 00:20:45,280
always is someone behind the curtain

550
00:20:51,190 --> 00:20:48,320
there's always a social engineering

551
00:20:53,190 --> 00:20:51,200
aspect of this that's always at play the

552
00:20:55,430 --> 00:20:53,200
question is do we know who they are do

553
00:20:57,830 --> 00:20:55,440
we know what they're doing

554
00:20:59,590 --> 00:20:57,840
yeah and more to your point i kind of

555
00:21:01,669 --> 00:20:59,600
missed a step when i was talking about

556
00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:01,679
my my journey here which would have led

557
00:21:06,630 --> 00:21:04,080
right into your point which was this

558
00:21:08,310 --> 00:21:06,640
i ended up going to a couple of sessions

559
00:21:10,070 --> 00:21:08,320
my mother's psychotherapy or grief

560
00:21:12,390 --> 00:21:10,080
counseling sessions i went with her and

561
00:21:14,230 --> 00:21:12,400
i filmed because i was just starting to

562
00:21:15,909 --> 00:21:14,240
figure out like what the movie was about

563
00:21:19,029 --> 00:21:15,919
at that point i just want to start

564
00:21:20,789 --> 00:21:19,039
following people around and luckily my

565
00:21:22,870 --> 00:21:20,799
mother and my mother's friends let me

566
00:21:24,390 --> 00:21:22,880
follow them around with a camera crew of

567
00:21:25,909 --> 00:21:24,400
10 people

568
00:21:27,510 --> 00:21:25,919
so i'm

569
00:21:29,830 --> 00:21:27,520
fumbling my mother around

570
00:21:31,590 --> 00:21:29,840
her to her grief counselor and she's

571
00:21:33,669 --> 00:21:31,600
having a conversation

572
00:21:35,350 --> 00:21:33,679
and she tells this did not make it into

573
00:21:37,669 --> 00:21:35,360
the film unfortunately had to be cut for

574
00:21:39,270 --> 00:21:37,679
timing but she tells my grief her grief

575
00:21:41,590 --> 00:21:39,280
counselor that

576
00:21:43,830 --> 00:21:41,600
her neighbor has kind of convinced her

577
00:21:45,669 --> 00:21:43,840
that maybe she should try looking for my

578
00:21:47,430 --> 00:21:45,679
father in the afterlife

579
00:21:49,990 --> 00:21:47,440
maybe she because because she was a

580
00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:50,000
little bit envious of her friend's

581
00:21:55,029 --> 00:21:52,320
experience she her friend was having a

582
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:55,039
real satisfy satisfactory relationship

583
00:21:59,990 --> 00:21:57,520
and my mother wanted that too

584
00:22:02,789 --> 00:22:00,000
and the grief counselor was very

585
00:22:04,070 --> 00:22:02,799
dismissive and discouraging she was

586
00:22:05,830 --> 00:22:04,080
empathetic

587
00:22:08,230 --> 00:22:05,840
but she said something along the lines

588
00:22:09,510 --> 00:22:08,240
of well that's okay irene for now but

589
00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:09,520
that's a

590
00:22:13,590 --> 00:22:11,280
short-term solution to a long-term

591
00:22:16,149 --> 00:22:13,600
problem you you don't want that to be

592
00:22:17,590 --> 00:22:16,159
the way to handle

593
00:22:19,669 --> 00:22:17,600
bereavement

594
00:22:21,750 --> 00:22:19,679
and that made me furious

595
00:22:24,230 --> 00:22:21,760
my mother was actually starting

596
00:22:26,230 --> 00:22:24,240
to get better she was actually starting

597
00:22:28,390 --> 00:22:26,240
to feel like maybe there was something

598
00:22:31,750 --> 00:22:28,400
ahead that lied ahead

599
00:22:33,750 --> 00:22:31,760
that would somehow close this huge gap

600
00:22:35,350 --> 00:22:33,760
that was now in her life

601
00:22:36,870 --> 00:22:35,360
and

602
00:22:40,390 --> 00:22:36,880
this grief counselor was basically

603
00:22:42,549 --> 00:22:40,400
disabusing my mother of this this okay

604
00:22:43,270 --> 00:22:42,559
let's call it a placebo effect if you

605
00:22:44,549 --> 00:22:43,280
will

606
00:22:46,950 --> 00:22:44,559
maybe

607
00:22:49,669 --> 00:22:46,960
why do why why take that away from her

608
00:22:52,070 --> 00:22:49,679
even if it is just a placebo effect

609
00:22:53,669 --> 00:22:52,080
she believes that maybe my father is

610
00:22:55,990 --> 00:22:53,679
still in the house with her there was a

611
00:22:57,590 --> 00:22:56,000
light by the way i didn't mention this

612
00:23:00,390 --> 00:22:57,600
there was a light blinking in my house

613
00:23:01,350 --> 00:23:00,400
my old house house i grew up in

614
00:23:02,630 --> 00:23:01,360
and

615
00:23:04,390 --> 00:23:02,640
it was blinking there was a light

616
00:23:06,149 --> 00:23:04,400
blinking in every room

617
00:23:08,710 --> 00:23:06,159
and the neighbor convinced my mother

618
00:23:10,390 --> 00:23:08,720
that this is my father saying hello

619
00:23:12,789 --> 00:23:10,400
and my mother was starting to have these

620
00:23:14,390 --> 00:23:12,799
conversations with the blinking light

621
00:23:16,549 --> 00:23:14,400
and that was making her feel that this

622
00:23:17,909 --> 00:23:16,559
is the only thing that was making her

623
00:23:19,990 --> 00:23:17,919
feel better

624
00:23:22,230 --> 00:23:20,000
so for this grief counselor to say

625
00:23:24,630 --> 00:23:22,240
that's not wait the way to handle that i

626
00:23:26,710 --> 00:23:24,640
didn't do the research yet i was going

627
00:23:29,190 --> 00:23:26,720
to find out that 50 years ago a guy

628
00:23:31,350 --> 00:23:29,200
named dewey reese a physician discovered

629
00:23:33,029 --> 00:23:31,360
that half the population was having

630
00:23:34,310 --> 00:23:33,039
these experiences and feeling better

631
00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:34,320
from it

632
00:23:38,789 --> 00:23:36,640
i didn't find that yet

633
00:23:40,950 --> 00:23:38,799
i just knew that my mother

634
00:23:43,029 --> 00:23:40,960
was feeling better and that was the only

635
00:23:43,990 --> 00:23:43,039
thing that was important to me and how

636
00:23:46,310 --> 00:23:44,000
dare

637
00:23:47,990 --> 00:23:46,320
this grief counselor say no don't handle

638
00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:48,000
it that way irene that's not the way to

639
00:23:51,990 --> 00:23:50,640
do it i know better

640
00:23:53,750 --> 00:23:52,000
you know i think that actually did make

641
00:23:56,390 --> 00:23:53,760
it in the film isn't that uh beth

642
00:23:58,390 --> 00:23:56,400
greenstein isn't she the one who

643
00:24:00,710 --> 00:23:58,400
is talking to your mom and

644
00:24:02,870 --> 00:24:00,720
she you know you feel that's where i

645
00:24:05,029 --> 00:24:02,880
guess i'd switch over on your side

646
00:24:06,390 --> 00:24:05,039
i do feel for

647
00:24:07,750 --> 00:24:06,400
people like beth

648
00:24:09,269 --> 00:24:07,760
even though they're ignorant of the

649
00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:09,279
science and even though they're giving

650
00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:11,440
bad advice they're doing what they think

651
00:24:17,029 --> 00:24:14,000
their job is to kind of help these

652
00:24:20,310 --> 00:24:17,039
people through the day and it's kind of

653
00:24:23,510 --> 00:24:20,320
the nature of counseling that they're so

654
00:24:26,070 --> 00:24:23,520
intertwined with their own beliefs and

655
00:24:27,750 --> 00:24:26,080
values you know so i hold the scientists

656
00:24:29,990 --> 00:24:27,760
to a different standard because they

657
00:24:32,310 --> 00:24:30,000
hold themselves to a different standard

658
00:24:34,789 --> 00:24:32,320
but yeah it is really troubling you want

659
00:24:37,110 --> 00:24:34,799
to jump right into the film and grab her

660
00:24:39,350 --> 00:24:37,120
little neck and say

661
00:24:41,590 --> 00:24:39,360
how can you be so confident in just

662
00:24:43,909 --> 00:24:41,600
completely denying someone's experience

663
00:24:47,190 --> 00:24:43,919
i mean you wouldn't deny anyone else's

664
00:24:48,149 --> 00:24:47,200
experience why are you so immediately

665
00:24:50,870 --> 00:24:48,159
kind of

666
00:24:52,630 --> 00:24:50,880
triggered to deny this experience so

667
00:24:53,909 --> 00:24:52,640
that conversation

668
00:24:55,190 --> 00:24:53,919
you saw a different conversation that

669
00:24:57,029 --> 00:24:55,200
made it into the film this particular

670
00:24:58,630 --> 00:24:57,039
conversation i'm talking about did not

671
00:25:00,630 --> 00:24:58,640
but right after that conversation i

672
00:25:02,390 --> 00:25:00,640
started doing some research it did not

673
00:25:05,029 --> 00:25:02,400
take me long at all

674
00:25:07,430 --> 00:25:05,039
to uncover i mean i'm not a professor

675
00:25:09,669 --> 00:25:07,440
right i'm not a psychologist

676
00:25:12,070 --> 00:25:09,679
i just had to do a couple of type in a

677
00:25:15,029 --> 00:25:12,080
couple of keywords in google

678
00:25:16,230 --> 00:25:15,039
and i found out about this physician in

679
00:25:18,070 --> 00:25:16,240
the uk

680
00:25:20,390 --> 00:25:18,080
in 1971

681
00:25:22,390 --> 00:25:20,400
did this research in wales where he just

682
00:25:24,870 --> 00:25:22,400
asked one simple question to a

683
00:25:25,990 --> 00:25:24,880
population of nearly 300 widows and

684
00:25:27,669 --> 00:25:26,000
widowers

685
00:25:30,070 --> 00:25:27,679
and the question was

686
00:25:31,510 --> 00:25:30,080
what has helped what has helped you most

687
00:25:32,710 --> 00:25:31,520
getting through

688
00:25:34,870 --> 00:25:32,720
your grief

689
00:25:37,029 --> 00:25:34,880
and the answer was he was shocked by

690
00:25:39,269 --> 00:25:37,039
this but the answer was getting a visit

691
00:25:41,430 --> 00:25:39,279
from my deceased spouse that that was

692
00:25:44,390 --> 00:25:41,440
the game changer for me

693
00:25:45,549 --> 00:25:44,400
so there's been like nine studies

694
00:25:49,190 --> 00:25:45,559
between

695
00:25:50,870 --> 00:25:49,200
1958 and 1998 and jan holden gave me

696
00:25:52,549 --> 00:25:50,880
this research by the way

697
00:25:54,470 --> 00:25:52,559
and whenever grad students compiled some

698
00:25:56,549 --> 00:25:54,480
numbers and figured

699
00:25:59,350 --> 00:25:56,559
those nine studies

700
00:26:00,470 --> 00:25:59,360
found that at at least

701
00:26:03,750 --> 00:26:00,480
40

702
00:26:05,110 --> 00:26:03,760
i think at least 47 on the low end and

703
00:26:06,470 --> 00:26:05,120
as much as 90

704
00:26:08,470 --> 00:26:06,480
on the high end

705
00:26:11,909 --> 00:26:08,480
of widows and widowers have had some

706
00:26:13,510 --> 00:26:11,919
kind of contact like i'm describing

707
00:26:15,430 --> 00:26:13,520
so one of the topics you have to

708
00:26:16,870 --> 00:26:15,440
navigate through the film and it's

709
00:26:19,669 --> 00:26:16,880
already come up a couple of times in

710
00:26:23,110 --> 00:26:19,679
this conversation is effectively dealing

711
00:26:24,630 --> 00:26:23,120
with grief in terms of feeling better

712
00:26:26,470 --> 00:26:24,640
versus

713
00:26:28,950 --> 00:26:26,480
the underlying

714
00:26:31,269 --> 00:26:28,960
extended consciousness science is the

715
00:26:33,669 --> 00:26:31,279
way i would say it and that means

716
00:26:35,269 --> 00:26:33,679
are you really talking with the deceased

717
00:26:38,149 --> 00:26:35,279
what does that mean

718
00:26:39,990 --> 00:26:38,159
what happens to us after we die how long

719
00:26:42,390 --> 00:26:40,000
do you do it is there some kind of

720
00:26:44,710 --> 00:26:42,400
mechanism for doing it can you do this

721
00:26:46,710 --> 00:26:44,720
eft tapping on the hands and does that

722
00:26:48,870 --> 00:26:46,720
magically transport you into the

723
00:26:50,390 --> 00:26:48,880
extended realm all those kind of

724
00:26:53,430 --> 00:26:50,400
questions so

725
00:26:55,750 --> 00:26:53,440
how does the film wrestle with that and

726
00:26:57,430 --> 00:26:55,760
how do you wrestle with that yourself

727
00:27:00,470 --> 00:26:57,440
stephen having gone through this on such

728
00:27:03,190 --> 00:27:00,480
a personal level is it just about

729
00:27:06,549 --> 00:27:03,200
feeling better or is it about

730
00:27:09,669 --> 00:27:06,559
somehow having a deeper understanding of

731
00:27:11,430 --> 00:27:09,679
what this consciousness thing is

732
00:27:13,350 --> 00:27:11,440
it's a great question the answer for me

733
00:27:15,909 --> 00:27:13,360
is different than the answer like i

734
00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:15,919
think for my subjects in the film

735
00:27:19,430 --> 00:27:17,200
i i like

736
00:27:21,269 --> 00:27:19,440
starting out with what alan botkin says

737
00:27:22,549 --> 00:27:21,279
when people say hey is this is this a

738
00:27:23,909 --> 00:27:22,559
real

739
00:27:25,269 --> 00:27:23,919
thing that's happening are these people

740
00:27:26,950 --> 00:27:25,279
just imagining it and that's what's

741
00:27:29,110 --> 00:27:26,960
making them feel better

742
00:27:30,549 --> 00:27:29,120
and i decided to take a page out of his

743
00:27:31,830 --> 00:27:30,559
book i think this is a great answer to

744
00:27:34,549 --> 00:27:31,840
that question

745
00:27:37,669 --> 00:27:34,559
the answer is it doesn't matter

746
00:27:40,310 --> 00:27:37,679
this therapy that's featured in the film

747
00:27:42,149 --> 00:27:40,320
is about healing

748
00:27:43,430 --> 00:27:42,159
alan botkin he'll say something along

749
00:27:45,669 --> 00:27:43,440
the lines of

750
00:27:47,110 --> 00:27:45,679
i don't want to get mired in the debate

751
00:27:48,630 --> 00:27:47,120
of whether or not our personalities

752
00:27:50,470 --> 00:27:48,640
survive death

753
00:27:52,630 --> 00:27:50,480
that's for the that's for the

754
00:27:54,870 --> 00:27:52,640
uh the academics i'm not interested in

755
00:27:57,029 --> 00:27:54,880
that i just want i'm a psychologist i

756
00:27:59,909 --> 00:27:57,039
want to help people heal

757
00:28:01,430 --> 00:27:59,919
so as a filmmaker i have an opinion and

758
00:28:02,470 --> 00:28:01,440
i think anybody who sees the film you

759
00:28:03,669 --> 00:28:02,480
could pretty much see the way i'm

760
00:28:06,149 --> 00:28:03,679
leaning

761
00:28:07,029 --> 00:28:06,159
but i like at least ostensibly coming

762
00:28:08,149 --> 00:28:07,039
across

763
00:28:10,549 --> 00:28:08,159
objective

764
00:28:12,630 --> 00:28:10,559
and saying okay this is how here's some

765
00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:12,640
information here's how these people feel

766
00:28:17,269 --> 00:28:15,120
and here are these people's opinions

767
00:28:19,350 --> 00:28:17,279
you know draw your own conclusion

768
00:28:23,029 --> 00:28:19,360
that just feels better

769
00:28:25,590 --> 00:28:23,039
to me to kind of like straddle that line

770
00:28:28,070 --> 00:28:25,600
well i think the film does a terrific

771
00:28:30,549 --> 00:28:28,080
job of that and as a matter of fact

772
00:28:33,269 --> 00:28:30,559
it makes it more powerful it makes it

773
00:28:36,070 --> 00:28:33,279
more compelling because you do hold that

774
00:28:39,269 --> 00:28:36,080
line and there's this story arc

775
00:28:41,750 --> 00:28:39,279
tell people about karen and tell people

776
00:28:43,430 --> 00:28:41,760
about the transformation that she goes

777
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:43,440
through because

778
00:28:47,190 --> 00:28:45,840
you guys are super skilled i can't even

779
00:28:48,470 --> 00:28:47,200
wrap my head around this being your

780
00:28:51,269 --> 00:28:48,480
first film

781
00:28:54,389 --> 00:28:51,279
but because it's so so well done and the

782
00:28:56,389 --> 00:28:54,399
story is incredible for a documentary

783
00:28:59,029 --> 00:28:56,399
there's a story line here that is just

784
00:29:00,870 --> 00:28:59,039
really compelling and it is

785
00:29:02,710 --> 00:29:00,880
centered around this woman named karen

786
00:29:04,950 --> 00:29:02,720
tell us the story

787
00:29:07,990 --> 00:29:04,960
okay thank you karen is the

788
00:29:10,070 --> 00:29:08,000
daughter-in-law of my mother's

789
00:29:11,269 --> 00:29:10,080
bridge partner and friend ethel

790
00:29:12,950 --> 00:29:11,279
now remember ethel is the one that does

791
00:29:15,750 --> 00:29:12,960
the automatic writing

792
00:29:17,430 --> 00:29:15,760
karen is her estranged daughter-in-law

793
00:29:20,549 --> 00:29:17,440
they're not on good terms

794
00:29:23,269 --> 00:29:20,559
the automatic writing you might want to

795
00:29:24,950 --> 00:29:23,279
just touch on that a little bit because

796
00:29:28,070 --> 00:29:24,960
it's become quite

797
00:29:30,870 --> 00:29:28,080
a divisive just incredibly painful thing

798
00:29:33,110 --> 00:29:30,880
in their current family life

799
00:29:34,870 --> 00:29:33,120
so what happened was

800
00:29:36,549 --> 00:29:34,880
by the way i found karen through ethel's

801
00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:36,559
book ethel wrote a book about her

802
00:29:41,110 --> 00:29:38,480
experience called

803
00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:41,120
um messages from my message from heaven

804
00:29:44,630 --> 00:29:42,720
thoughts from heaven

805
00:29:47,750 --> 00:29:44,640
but it's really just a transcript

806
00:29:50,070 --> 00:29:47,760
it's a transcript of her day her days

807
00:29:51,590 --> 00:29:50,080
with her husband after they reunited for

808
00:29:53,430 --> 00:29:51,600
the first time after

809
00:29:56,789 --> 00:29:53,440
12 years or so

810
00:29:58,149 --> 00:29:56,799
so um it's okay so karen

811
00:30:01,350 --> 00:29:58,159
uh

812
00:30:02,710 --> 00:30:01,360
i i met karen and her two two daughters

813
00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:02,720
and i just wanted to have just an

814
00:30:05,190 --> 00:30:03,840
interview that's the only thing i was

815
00:30:06,310 --> 00:30:05,200
asking for because i asked ethel when i

816
00:30:07,990 --> 00:30:06,320
was interviewing her if i should

817
00:30:10,230 --> 00:30:08,000
interview karen as well because she's in

818
00:30:12,950 --> 00:30:10,240
the book and my heart instantly goes out

819
00:30:15,909 --> 00:30:12,960
to karen and her children because they

820
00:30:18,630 --> 00:30:15,919
lost the patriarch of the family kevin

821
00:30:20,070 --> 00:30:18,640
her husband was in his early 40s when he

822
00:30:21,590 --> 00:30:20,080
died of a massive heart attack on a

823
00:30:24,070 --> 00:30:21,600
racquetball court

824
00:30:25,669 --> 00:30:24,080
so here's this young family

825
00:30:27,510 --> 00:30:25,679
and

826
00:30:29,190 --> 00:30:27,520
it was hard not to

827
00:30:31,750 --> 00:30:29,200
not to think about them

828
00:30:33,510 --> 00:30:31,760
throughout ethel's book so i i happen to

829
00:30:35,669 --> 00:30:33,520
live fairly close to where karen lives

830
00:30:36,789 --> 00:30:35,679
in connecticut so i had an interview

831
00:30:40,549 --> 00:30:36,799
with them

832
00:30:43,269 --> 00:30:40,559
and her and her children were very um

833
00:30:45,430 --> 00:30:43,279
very good interviews they just were very

834
00:30:47,669 --> 00:30:45,440
very grounded and they just very

835
00:30:50,389 --> 00:30:47,679
sensible but there was obviously there's

836
00:30:52,870 --> 00:30:50,399
some tension with the grandmother ethel

837
00:30:54,070 --> 00:30:52,880
there's this huge tension these you know

838
00:30:57,110 --> 00:30:54,080
you just

839
00:30:59,990 --> 00:30:57,120
what the film does and in a way that's

840
00:31:02,230 --> 00:31:00,000
completely unique because it has this

841
00:31:04,310 --> 00:31:02,240
scientific angle and this after death

842
00:31:05,269 --> 00:31:04,320
communication angle and the spiritual

843
00:31:07,350 --> 00:31:05,279
angle

844
00:31:10,549 --> 00:31:07,360
but you get this

845
00:31:13,269 --> 00:31:10,559
very intimate look at how grief affects

846
00:31:16,549 --> 00:31:13,279
an entire family and i gotta say one of

847
00:31:18,630 --> 00:31:16,559
the things that was rewarding for me is

848
00:31:21,110 --> 00:31:18,640
i identified with karen in a really

849
00:31:23,269 --> 00:31:21,120
negative way early on in the film i was

850
00:31:25,830 --> 00:31:23,279
like you're totally screwing over these

851
00:31:28,950 --> 00:31:25,840
kids in that they're not allowed to

852
00:31:31,430 --> 00:31:28,960
grieve they're not allowed to heal

853
00:31:33,269 --> 00:31:31,440
you're blocking that and then you're

854
00:31:35,029 --> 00:31:33,279
further blocking their relationship with

855
00:31:37,190 --> 00:31:35,039
their grandmother you're just directly

856
00:31:40,149 --> 00:31:37,200
saying that saying no we can't go visit

857
00:31:43,269 --> 00:31:40,159
grandma because she has does automatic

858
00:31:45,509 --> 00:31:43,279
writing with the deceased and she can't

859
00:31:46,870 --> 00:31:45,519
come visit us now the wonderful thing

860
00:31:48,950 --> 00:31:46,880
about the film

861
00:31:50,230 --> 00:31:48,960
is the story arc is

862
00:31:51,750 --> 00:31:50,240
when you see

863
00:31:53,110 --> 00:31:51,760
karen's healing

864
00:31:55,269 --> 00:31:53,120
in this film

865
00:31:58,630 --> 00:31:55,279
it's a wonderful thing it's uplifting

866
00:32:02,789 --> 00:32:00,789
yeah uh i i would say that i don't want

867
00:32:04,870 --> 00:32:02,799
to i don't want to get too too far on

868
00:32:06,870 --> 00:32:04,880
that train no no no you don't you don't

869
00:32:09,430 --> 00:32:06,880
have that's my comment that's as a

870
00:32:12,710 --> 00:32:09,440
viewer i wouldn't expect you to to have

871
00:32:15,029 --> 00:32:12,720
anything to say she's a she's an awesome

872
00:32:17,830 --> 00:32:15,039
person you know and for her to

873
00:32:21,190 --> 00:32:17,840
for her to expose herself so

874
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:21,200
openly in the film is is a gift a gift

875
00:32:25,350 --> 00:32:23,279
to everyone so the fact that that's

876
00:32:27,029 --> 00:32:25,360
about me i'm going through that those

877
00:32:29,190 --> 00:32:27,039
are my kind of things that doesn't have

878
00:32:31,669 --> 00:32:29,200
anything to do with this this woman and

879
00:32:33,830 --> 00:32:31,679
her kids they're awesome but i think we

880
00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:33,840
got to talk about this stuff too because

881
00:32:39,509 --> 00:32:36,480
otherwise it all just becomes this

882
00:32:41,669 --> 00:32:39,519
kind of trope about grief and oh you

883
00:32:42,950 --> 00:32:41,679
know we have to receive you know fine

884
00:32:44,310 --> 00:32:42,960
whatever you're going through other

885
00:32:46,230 --> 00:32:44,320
people are going through different stuff

886
00:32:47,590 --> 00:32:46,240
everyone's on their own thing no no

887
00:32:50,630 --> 00:32:47,600
judgment but just

888
00:32:52,789 --> 00:32:50,640
what are we dealing with here

889
00:32:54,710 --> 00:32:52,799
you know i had to tell you that karen

890
00:32:56,310 --> 00:32:54,720
did not want to do the film she was not

891
00:32:58,710 --> 00:32:56,320
interested she was willing to do an

892
00:33:00,149 --> 00:32:58,720
interview and she told me that off

893
00:33:01,509 --> 00:33:00,159
camera she told me that she was willing

894
00:33:03,669 --> 00:33:01,519
to do it only because she wanted to show

895
00:33:05,350 --> 00:33:03,679
her children that it's okay to step

896
00:33:06,310 --> 00:33:05,360
outside your comfort zone every once in

897
00:33:07,909 --> 00:33:06,320
a while

898
00:33:09,509 --> 00:33:07,919
and now i would just get back to your

899
00:33:10,389 --> 00:33:09,519
question i kind of lost it did give it

900
00:33:12,470 --> 00:33:10,399
to me again

901
00:33:15,990 --> 00:33:12,480
well i think what we were chatting about

902
00:33:17,990 --> 00:33:16,000
was the technology of after death

903
00:33:19,909 --> 00:33:18,000
communication and i would include in

904
00:33:21,350 --> 00:33:19,919
that technology and you might want to

905
00:33:24,389 --> 00:33:21,360
speak to this

906
00:33:26,230 --> 00:33:24,399
the therapy they've done at university

907
00:33:28,310 --> 00:33:26,240
of north texas jan holden and her

908
00:33:30,190 --> 00:33:28,320
colleagues which you know anyone who

909
00:33:33,190 --> 00:33:30,200
knows jan holland she has done

910
00:33:35,350 --> 00:33:33,200
extraordinary work in this field for a

911
00:33:37,909 --> 00:33:35,360
long period of time and when i say this

912
00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:37,919
field it's not just in after death

913
00:33:43,509 --> 00:33:40,080
communication but in near-death

914
00:33:46,870 --> 00:33:43,519
experience research in consciousness

915
00:33:48,470 --> 00:33:46,880
research in parapsychology research

916
00:33:51,350 --> 00:33:48,480
jan is

917
00:33:52,710 --> 00:33:51,360
top notch and has done unbelievable work

918
00:33:55,029 --> 00:33:52,720
in this field

919
00:33:56,710 --> 00:33:55,039
but what they did which is really

920
00:33:58,070 --> 00:33:56,720
interesting and you might want to speak

921
00:34:01,789 --> 00:33:58,080
to it

922
00:34:04,470 --> 00:34:01,799
is they took a therapy that has been

923
00:34:07,029 --> 00:34:04,480
controversial but you just can't deny

924
00:34:08,710 --> 00:34:07,039
that it works and that is this tapping

925
00:34:09,829 --> 00:34:08,720
thing that now a lot of people have

926
00:34:12,310 --> 00:34:09,839
heard about

927
00:34:13,589 --> 00:34:12,320
where like soldiers will come back with

928
00:34:15,030 --> 00:34:13,599
ptsd

929
00:34:17,430 --> 00:34:15,040
and their

930
00:34:20,629 --> 00:34:17,440
as a way of overcoming or dealing with

931
00:34:24,389 --> 00:34:20,639
the p ptsd they re-experience the

932
00:34:27,030 --> 00:34:24,399
memories while a therapist does this

933
00:34:30,230 --> 00:34:27,040
tapping is all you can say that's what

934
00:34:31,510 --> 00:34:30,240
it is this bilateral stimulation on

935
00:34:33,750 --> 00:34:31,520
their hands

936
00:34:36,629 --> 00:34:33,760
while they're recalling things and it

937
00:34:38,710 --> 00:34:36,639
allows them to access these memories and

938
00:34:40,389 --> 00:34:38,720
process these memories in a different

939
00:34:42,470 --> 00:34:40,399
way at least

940
00:34:44,710 --> 00:34:42,480
we don't know if any of that's true we

941
00:34:48,389 --> 00:34:44,720
just know that they experience a healing

942
00:34:51,030 --> 00:34:48,399
from their ptsd the genius part for jan

943
00:34:52,950 --> 00:34:51,040
and her group is to say well gee if it

944
00:34:55,030 --> 00:34:52,960
works for that trauma

945
00:34:57,510 --> 00:34:55,040
maybe it can work for these people who

946
00:34:59,750 --> 00:34:57,520
are experiencing chronic grief grief

947
00:35:02,390 --> 00:34:59,760
that just goes on and on and on for

948
00:35:04,390 --> 00:35:02,400
years and is extremely debilitating

949
00:35:07,270 --> 00:35:04,400
for these people the important thing is

950
00:35:08,550 --> 00:35:07,280
what what jan did was she said okay

951
00:35:09,990 --> 00:35:08,560
let's compare

952
00:35:12,710 --> 00:35:10,000
al botkin is the one who made the

953
00:35:15,349 --> 00:35:12,720
discovery that this emdr therapy that

954
00:35:18,069 --> 00:35:15,359
was used for the vietnam vets when he

955
00:35:21,030 --> 00:35:18,079
was working in chicago vet hospital

956
00:35:22,950 --> 00:35:21,040
that could work for grief because by

957
00:35:25,190 --> 00:35:22,960
accident he discovered that one of his

958
00:35:28,069 --> 00:35:25,200
one of his clients or patients where he

959
00:35:29,910 --> 00:35:28,079
was administering this emdr therapy

960
00:35:31,109 --> 00:35:29,920
they had an adc and after death

961
00:35:32,069 --> 00:35:31,119
communication

962
00:35:34,950 --> 00:35:32,079
so

963
00:35:36,950 --> 00:35:34,960
he he just modified it just

964
00:35:40,069 --> 00:35:36,960
it was just incidental he modified the

965
00:35:41,910 --> 00:35:40,079
emdr just enough for this person to have

966
00:35:43,829 --> 00:35:41,920
an accurate death communication and then

967
00:35:45,750 --> 00:35:43,839
he wrote a book called induced after

968
00:35:49,349 --> 00:35:45,760
death communication therapy

969
00:35:51,990 --> 00:35:49,359
and that's what led to where we are now

970
00:35:53,829 --> 00:35:52,000
but he's the one that discovered it what

971
00:35:57,270 --> 00:35:53,839
jan holden did was he she said okay

972
00:35:58,870 --> 00:35:57,280
let's compare let's compare this iadc

973
00:36:00,950 --> 00:35:58,880
therapy to

974
00:36:02,390 --> 00:36:00,960
traditional grief counseling and see

975
00:36:04,470 --> 00:36:02,400
what works better

976
00:36:06,470 --> 00:36:04,480
it wasn't really a fair contest actually

977
00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:06,480
because nobody gets better from grief

978
00:36:09,270 --> 00:36:08,160
counseling it turns out it just doesn't

979
00:36:09,990 --> 00:36:09,280
work

980
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:10,000
but

981
00:36:15,030 --> 00:36:12,960
with this iedc therapy and

982
00:36:16,470 --> 00:36:15,040
jan has the numbers she's published

983
00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:16,480
she's going to be publishing this

984
00:36:21,030 --> 00:36:19,440
article i believe it's already published

985
00:36:22,710 --> 00:36:21,040
in a peer-reviewed journal but it's not

986
00:36:24,550 --> 00:36:22,720
out yet so she can't really discuss the

987
00:36:25,270 --> 00:36:24,560
numbers exactly

988
00:36:27,190 --> 00:36:25,280
but

989
00:36:27,910 --> 00:36:27,200
it's safe to say that

990
00:36:33,589 --> 00:36:27,920
the

991
00:36:35,910 --> 00:36:33,599
where you're you're basically

992
00:36:38,310 --> 00:36:35,920
reintroducing the deceased back into the

993
00:36:40,790 --> 00:36:38,320
survivor's life the success rate is

994
00:36:43,109 --> 00:36:40,800
close to around seven to eighty percent

995
00:36:45,589 --> 00:36:43,119
that's mind-blowing compared to any

996
00:36:46,710 --> 00:36:45,599
therapy that's ridiculous

997
00:36:49,109 --> 00:36:46,720
so

998
00:36:50,069 --> 00:36:49,119
it's very successful therapy

999
00:36:51,589 --> 00:36:50,079
and

1000
00:36:53,829 --> 00:36:51,599
what i'm hoping this movie will do

1001
00:36:56,390 --> 00:36:53,839
basically is basically is just introduce

1002
00:36:58,630 --> 00:36:56,400
people to the idea that not only this

1003
00:36:59,670 --> 00:36:58,640
therapy but any therapy that has to do

1004
00:37:02,069 --> 00:36:59,680
with

1005
00:37:03,750 --> 00:37:02,079
the continuing bonds theory which julie

1006
00:37:06,069 --> 00:37:03,760
bishop talks about a lot in your show

1007
00:37:08,390 --> 00:37:06,079
the continuing bonds theory

1008
00:37:11,990 --> 00:37:08,400
of getting through bereavement

1009
00:37:14,550 --> 00:37:12,000
so talk about continuing bonds and talk

1010
00:37:17,349 --> 00:37:14,560
about the paradigm shift

1011
00:37:20,069 --> 00:37:17,359
that that represents in terms of how

1012
00:37:21,589 --> 00:37:20,079
psychology has handled grief

1013
00:37:25,990 --> 00:37:21,599
through the i don't want to say through

1014
00:37:27,030 --> 00:37:26,000
the ages but for the last 50 75 years

1015
00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:27,040
let me go back a little bit further

1016
00:37:29,990 --> 00:37:28,880
let's go back to the civil war

1017
00:37:32,710 --> 00:37:30,000
when

1018
00:37:35,990 --> 00:37:32,720
620 000 people americans lost their

1019
00:37:37,670 --> 00:37:36,000
lives right a brother a father a son

1020
00:37:40,310 --> 00:37:37,680
gone right

1021
00:37:41,190 --> 00:37:40,320
almost every family in the country has

1022
00:37:42,150 --> 00:37:41,200
lost

1023
00:37:43,829 --> 00:37:42,160
a male

1024
00:37:46,150 --> 00:37:43,839
during those times

1025
00:37:47,670 --> 00:37:46,160
and it was almost necessary for people

1026
00:37:50,470 --> 00:37:47,680
to get involved in spiritualism i think

1027
00:37:52,870 --> 00:37:50,480
half the country was doing it uh mary

1028
00:37:54,630 --> 00:37:52,880
todd in the lincoln white house was

1029
00:37:57,190 --> 00:37:54,640
conducting sciences

1030
00:37:58,870 --> 00:37:57,200
so it was very much in vogue

1031
00:38:01,109 --> 00:37:58,880
because people kind of felt like i had

1032
00:38:01,910 --> 00:38:01,119
no choice

1033
00:38:04,870 --> 00:38:01,920
then

1034
00:38:08,390 --> 00:38:04,880
i think around the turn of the century

1035
00:38:10,150 --> 00:38:08,400
psychology became the thing right

1036
00:38:11,589 --> 00:38:10,160
and

1037
00:38:13,589 --> 00:38:11,599
there was

1038
00:38:15,349 --> 00:38:13,599
psychology said well we're going to be

1039
00:38:17,829 --> 00:38:15,359
the authority on human thought from now

1040
00:38:18,870 --> 00:38:17,839
on and spiritualism doesn't really fit

1041
00:38:21,270 --> 00:38:18,880
into that

1042
00:38:22,550 --> 00:38:21,280
so there was a kind of suppression going

1043
00:38:24,710 --> 00:38:22,560
on

1044
00:38:26,310 --> 00:38:24,720
and i think david hufford said it best

1045
00:38:27,589 --> 00:38:26,320
in my interviews i pulled up his quote

1046
00:38:29,990 --> 00:38:27,599
when i was talking to him he said

1047
00:38:33,109 --> 00:38:30,000
something about just put up here

1048
00:38:34,790 --> 00:38:33,119
he said suppression of the prevalence of

1049
00:38:35,990 --> 00:38:34,800
these kinds of experiences which he's

1050
00:38:38,630 --> 00:38:36,000
talking about

1051
00:38:40,310 --> 00:38:38,640
spirit experiences

1052
00:38:42,630 --> 00:38:40,320
suppression of the prevalence of these

1053
00:38:45,829 --> 00:38:42,640
kinds of experiences is a necessary step

1054
00:38:47,430 --> 00:38:45,839
towards marginalizing them

1055
00:38:48,790 --> 00:38:47,440
which is true which is basically what's

1056
00:38:51,109 --> 00:38:48,800
happened

1057
00:38:52,710 --> 00:38:51,119
from the turn of the century

1058
00:38:54,870 --> 00:38:52,720
i'm talking about turn to the 20th

1059
00:38:56,950 --> 00:38:54,880
century until now

1060
00:38:59,430 --> 00:38:56,960
again i feel like you did a really good

1061
00:39:00,950 --> 00:38:59,440
job of this in the film

1062
00:39:02,230 --> 00:39:00,960
in that pointing out that this is a

1063
00:39:04,470 --> 00:39:02,240
misstep

1064
00:39:07,910 --> 00:39:04,480
this is an incorrect

1065
00:39:10,630 --> 00:39:07,920
hypothesis and the hypothesis is that

1066
00:39:11,510 --> 00:39:10,640
the best way for people to overcome

1067
00:39:14,230 --> 00:39:11,520
grief

1068
00:39:16,550 --> 00:39:14,240
is to distance themselves from the

1069
00:39:19,750 --> 00:39:16,560
memories from the connections from the

1070
00:39:22,310 --> 00:39:19,760
bonds they have with the deceased right

1071
00:39:23,990 --> 00:39:22,320
that turns out to be as you mentioned

1072
00:39:26,870 --> 00:39:24,000
through the research that we have like

1073
00:39:28,390 --> 00:39:26,880
dr julie bishop and many others is

1074
00:39:30,470 --> 00:39:28,400
that's completely wrong

1075
00:39:32,950 --> 00:39:30,480
and what you need to do is the opposite

1076
00:39:35,430 --> 00:39:32,960
of that now we can get back to whose

1077
00:39:38,630 --> 00:39:35,440
responsibility it is wouldn't we all be

1078
00:39:42,230 --> 00:39:38,640
a lot better off if science particularly

1079
00:39:45,349 --> 00:39:42,240
in this case psychology and psychiatry

1080
00:39:47,750 --> 00:39:45,359
could own up to their mistake and say uh

1081
00:39:49,190 --> 00:39:47,760
oh sorry which we could all forgive

1082
00:39:51,910 --> 00:39:49,200
because things change but they don't

1083
00:39:57,030 --> 00:39:51,920
they continue down trying to prop that

1084
00:39:59,589 --> 00:39:57,040
up so the the continuing bonds theory

1085
00:40:02,390 --> 00:39:59,599
is that from a cross-cultural and

1086
00:40:05,030 --> 00:40:02,400
cross-time point it's just so smacky in

1087
00:40:06,790 --> 00:40:05,040
the head obvious that it's almost like

1088
00:40:08,309 --> 00:40:06,800
drives me nuts like going the part that

1089
00:40:09,750 --> 00:40:08,319
we're turning we're talking about

1090
00:40:11,510 --> 00:40:09,760
currently i mean if you don't think this

1091
00:40:14,390 --> 00:40:11,520
is some kind of

1092
00:40:17,030 --> 00:40:14,400
systematic effort to separate you from

1093
00:40:19,030 --> 00:40:17,040
your divine nature from your expanded

1094
00:40:21,030 --> 00:40:19,040
extended self well then you're just not

1095
00:40:23,109 --> 00:40:21,040
paying attention because what they've

1096
00:40:26,470 --> 00:40:23,119
done here is say

1097
00:40:28,950 --> 00:40:26,480
you look at cross culture cross time

1098
00:40:31,109 --> 00:40:28,960
you know you have a shrine in your house

1099
00:40:32,710 --> 00:40:31,119
for the for the deceased right you have

1100
00:40:34,790 --> 00:40:32,720
a picture of your father your

1101
00:40:36,309 --> 00:40:34,800
grandfather your grandmother you maybe

1102
00:40:39,190 --> 00:40:36,319
even go over and you look at it i have

1103
00:40:41,030 --> 00:40:39,200
such an altar in my house most i was a

1104
00:40:43,510 --> 00:40:41,040
crazed greek greek orthodox i'm not

1105
00:40:46,069 --> 00:40:43,520
religious anymore but that's a good idea

1106
00:40:49,030 --> 00:40:46,079
you go over to uh someone who's raised

1107
00:40:51,990 --> 00:40:49,040
in an eastern chinese

1108
00:40:53,990 --> 00:40:52,000
japanese of course there's you know that

1109
00:40:56,309 --> 00:40:54,000
so this is a tibetan i mean of course

1110
00:40:58,390 --> 00:40:56,319
this is how it's always done so the fact

1111
00:41:00,069 --> 00:40:58,400
that we've kind of thought that

1112
00:41:02,150 --> 00:41:00,079
you know this completely we should go

1113
00:41:03,270 --> 00:41:02,160
completely the opposite way and remove

1114
00:41:05,510 --> 00:41:03,280
any bonds

1115
00:41:07,270 --> 00:41:05,520
are we or should we now act like oh mush

1116
00:41:10,390 --> 00:41:07,280
we're surprised you know what that

1117
00:41:11,990 --> 00:41:10,400
doesn't seem to work at all gosh darn it

1118
00:41:13,750 --> 00:41:12,000
i talked to julie beischel about this

1119
00:41:16,230 --> 00:41:13,760
topic i met her through your show by the

1120
00:41:17,589 --> 00:41:16,240
way thank you we were talking about how

1121
00:41:19,349 --> 00:41:17,599
and this is years ago this happened this

1122
00:41:20,870 --> 00:41:19,359
conversation happened but

1123
00:41:23,349 --> 00:41:20,880
in the continuing bonds they talk a

1124
00:41:24,790 --> 00:41:23,359
little bit about freud and freud had

1125
00:41:27,349 --> 00:41:24,800
this idea

1126
00:41:29,109 --> 00:41:27,359
that he put into this i guess a paper

1127
00:41:31,670 --> 00:41:29,119
called morning and melancholia where was

1128
00:41:33,829 --> 00:41:31,680
supposed to sever ties with the deceased

1129
00:41:36,150 --> 00:41:33,839
that's actually not what he said that's

1130
00:41:38,150 --> 00:41:36,160
a misreading of what freud said but

1131
00:41:40,390 --> 00:41:38,160
that's in a way irrelevant the fact is

1132
00:41:43,750 --> 00:41:40,400
that people came away from that paper

1133
00:41:45,990 --> 00:41:43,760
thinking okay freud the big hancho says

1134
00:41:48,150 --> 00:41:46,000
okay we're not supposed to think about

1135
00:41:49,349 --> 00:41:48,160
our deceased we have to just move on

1136
00:41:51,430 --> 00:41:49,359
forget them

1137
00:41:53,589 --> 00:41:51,440
and what continuing bonds did with that

1138
00:41:54,710 --> 00:41:53,599
research did led by a man named a

1139
00:41:57,910 --> 00:41:54,720
professor

1140
00:42:00,230 --> 00:41:57,920
dennis class

1141
00:42:02,950 --> 00:42:00,240
and his colleagues found that our

1142
00:42:05,430 --> 00:42:02,960
nervous systems simply work better

1143
00:42:07,670 --> 00:42:05,440
when we maintain some kind of a bond

1144
00:42:10,069 --> 00:42:07,680
with the deceased it doesn't have to be

1145
00:42:12,790 --> 00:42:10,079
communication with them but we have to

1146
00:42:15,670 --> 00:42:12,800
take our our loved ones with us

1147
00:42:18,230 --> 00:42:15,680
it's it's necessary and one of the iadc

1148
00:42:20,470 --> 00:42:18,240
therapists that's in the film uh graham

1149
00:42:21,910 --> 00:42:20,480
maxie who's karen's therapist in the

1150
00:42:23,270 --> 00:42:21,920
film

1151
00:42:25,030 --> 00:42:23,280
he talked a little bit off camera he

1152
00:42:28,150 --> 00:42:25,040
talked a little bit about

1153
00:42:31,109 --> 00:42:28,160
toy story 2. did you see that movie alex

1154
00:42:32,710 --> 00:42:31,119
there's a part where one of the dolls i

1155
00:42:33,589 --> 00:42:32,720
think it's the cowboy

1156
00:42:35,750 --> 00:42:33,599
toy

1157
00:42:37,910 --> 00:42:35,760
is put into a recycling bin

1158
00:42:39,670 --> 00:42:37,920
the child was done with the toy and it's

1159
00:42:41,109 --> 00:42:39,680
one of the most heartbreaking scenes in

1160
00:42:43,589 --> 00:42:41,119
the film

1161
00:42:45,910 --> 00:42:43,599
because i i guess graham likes to use

1162
00:42:47,430 --> 00:42:45,920
his example because we're not supposed

1163
00:42:49,349 --> 00:42:47,440
to do that with people we're not

1164
00:42:51,910 --> 00:42:49,359
supposed to just put them in a box and

1165
00:42:53,910 --> 00:42:51,920
say okay they're there now it's time for

1166
00:42:56,230 --> 00:42:53,920
me to kind of move on with my life we're

1167
00:42:57,349 --> 00:42:56,240
not built like that we're social social

1168
00:42:59,430 --> 00:42:57,359
creatures

1169
00:43:01,510 --> 00:42:59,440
and our loved ones

1170
00:43:04,470 --> 00:43:01,520
mean a lot to us we're not supposed to

1171
00:43:06,309 --> 00:43:04,480
just plant them and say bye bye

1172
00:43:08,550 --> 00:43:06,319
we have to take them with us for our own

1173
00:43:10,550 --> 00:43:08,560
mental health for our sanity

1174
00:43:12,790 --> 00:43:10,560
we have to take them with us in some

1175
00:43:13,750 --> 00:43:12,800
regard it doesn't matter how you're

1176
00:43:16,309 --> 00:43:13,760
doing it

1177
00:43:19,829 --> 00:43:16,319
to each his own but do it take them with

1178
00:43:20,790 --> 00:43:19,839
you i i hear you and that's awesome and

1179
00:43:22,390 --> 00:43:20,800
again

1180
00:43:23,430 --> 00:43:22,400
well done and well done in the film

1181
00:43:25,510 --> 00:43:23,440
where you show

1182
00:43:26,470 --> 00:43:25,520
different cultures who just are looking

1183
00:43:29,430 --> 00:43:26,480
through

1184
00:43:31,349 --> 00:43:29,440
photo albums of their loved ones i think

1185
00:43:33,910 --> 00:43:31,359
that what your film kind of helps us do

1186
00:43:35,990 --> 00:43:33,920
again is understand the grief process in

1187
00:43:37,270 --> 00:43:36,000
maybe a way that some of us don't

1188
00:43:39,990 --> 00:43:37,280
because that would seem to be a very

1189
00:43:42,150 --> 00:43:40,000
ordinary thing for most of us that oh

1190
00:43:44,390 --> 00:43:42,160
you know let's remember grandpa oh get

1191
00:43:46,470 --> 00:43:44,400
down the pictures and we can actually

1192
00:43:48,550 --> 00:43:46,480
laugh a little bit and cry a little bit

1193
00:43:49,589 --> 00:43:48,560
and re-experience some wonderful

1194
00:43:52,470 --> 00:43:49,599
memories

1195
00:43:54,470 --> 00:43:52,480
but as your film points out

1196
00:43:56,710 --> 00:43:54,480
people who are suffering

1197
00:43:59,349 --> 00:43:56,720
chronic grief a lot of times

1198
00:44:01,109 --> 00:43:59,359
they're not able to do that so maybe

1199
00:44:02,870 --> 00:44:01,119
share with people a little bit about

1200
00:44:05,349 --> 00:44:02,880
what you learned both through your

1201
00:44:06,309 --> 00:44:05,359
personal experience and your family but

1202
00:44:08,630 --> 00:44:06,319
also

1203
00:44:11,190 --> 00:44:08,640
as working with these clinicians about

1204
00:44:12,230 --> 00:44:11,200
how devastating grief can really be for

1205
00:44:13,829 --> 00:44:12,240
people

1206
00:44:15,990 --> 00:44:13,839
yeah thank you alex there's there's

1207
00:44:18,790 --> 00:44:16,000
something i learned that was surprising

1208
00:44:21,109 --> 00:44:18,800
but it makes sense that grief and of

1209
00:44:24,390 --> 00:44:21,119
itself is a kind of trauma very often

1210
00:44:26,710 --> 00:44:24,400
especially i'm talking about the kind of

1211
00:44:27,589 --> 00:44:26,720
sudden death or abrupt death

1212
00:44:30,150 --> 00:44:27,599
that

1213
00:44:31,510 --> 00:44:30,160
feels like a trauma and the trauma gets

1214
00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:31,520
infused

1215
00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:32,400
with

1216
00:44:36,790 --> 00:44:34,640
the morning and you have something new

1217
00:44:38,230 --> 00:44:36,800
you have something that's tantamount to

1218
00:44:40,390 --> 00:44:38,240
a disorder

1219
00:44:42,150 --> 00:44:40,400
and something called complicated grief

1220
00:44:44,870 --> 00:44:42,160
which i believe is suffered by about 20

1221
00:44:47,109 --> 00:44:44,880
to 30 percent of all bereaved especially

1222
00:44:49,670 --> 00:44:47,119
with co like think about coven how many

1223
00:44:50,870 --> 00:44:49,680
people lost someone suddenly in the last

1224
00:44:52,790 --> 00:44:50,880
few years

1225
00:44:54,870 --> 00:44:52,800
even if it wasn't like an accident like

1226
00:44:57,750 --> 00:44:54,880
it was an instant they sometimes would

1227
00:45:00,309 --> 00:44:57,760
lose their husband or child

1228
00:45:02,550 --> 00:45:00,319
or grandparent within days of them

1229
00:45:05,030 --> 00:45:02,560
contracting this thing so that's pretty

1230
00:45:07,349 --> 00:45:05,040
abrupt and that's traumatizing to a

1231
00:45:10,550 --> 00:45:07,359
family member very often

1232
00:45:13,030 --> 00:45:10,560
that sudden loss the sudden of us

1233
00:45:15,030 --> 00:45:13,040
suddenness of it

1234
00:45:17,589 --> 00:45:15,040
is

1235
00:45:19,109 --> 00:45:17,599
traumatizing to a level that you develop

1236
00:45:20,950 --> 00:45:19,119
these kind of disorders i'm talking

1237
00:45:22,470 --> 00:45:20,960
about and it needs

1238
00:45:23,589 --> 00:45:22,480
some kind of intervention in order to

1239
00:45:24,870 --> 00:45:23,599
get through it

1240
00:45:27,430 --> 00:45:24,880
so

1241
00:45:29,349 --> 00:45:27,440
i kind of spent a lot of time on iadc

1242
00:45:30,950 --> 00:45:29,359
therapy to get through it

1243
00:45:34,309 --> 00:45:30,960
of course there are other ways to get

1244
00:45:35,510 --> 00:45:34,319
through it doesn't have to be iadc but

1245
00:45:37,990 --> 00:45:35,520
you definitely

1246
00:45:39,349 --> 00:45:38,000
in certain situations uh

1247
00:45:41,750 --> 00:45:39,359
it's necessary and there's one thing

1248
00:45:43,829 --> 00:45:41,760
that grant maxey said in the film that

1249
00:45:46,069 --> 00:45:43,839
is one of my favorite quotes he said

1250
00:45:47,510 --> 00:45:46,079
that there's this very odd thing that

1251
00:45:49,430 --> 00:45:47,520
people say

1252
00:45:51,829 --> 00:45:49,440
it's everybody gets through grief in

1253
00:45:53,589 --> 00:45:51,839
their own way

1254
00:45:55,109 --> 00:45:53,599
but does that mean that we shouldn't try

1255
00:45:56,870 --> 00:45:55,119
to find something that works for the

1256
00:46:00,550 --> 00:45:56,880
majority of people

1257
00:46:02,470 --> 00:46:00,560
and he he was talking about iadc but it

1258
00:46:03,670 --> 00:46:02,480
could be something else in five years it

1259
00:46:05,430 --> 00:46:03,680
might be something completely different

1260
00:46:07,750 --> 00:46:05,440
that helps people get through it the

1261
00:46:09,829 --> 00:46:07,760
fact is that

1262
00:46:11,910 --> 00:46:09,839
yeah yes it's true that people get

1263
00:46:13,910 --> 00:46:11,920
through their own way but there is

1264
00:46:15,510 --> 00:46:13,920
something that can work for most people

1265
00:46:17,589 --> 00:46:15,520
and it seems that the continuing bonds

1266
00:46:19,670 --> 00:46:17,599
thing will work for most people and

1267
00:46:21,829 --> 00:46:19,680
getting through some of these

1268
00:46:24,069 --> 00:46:21,839
more difficult disorders

1269
00:46:27,910 --> 00:46:24,079
i think we should talk just for a minute

1270
00:46:30,309 --> 00:46:27,920
about this iadc because you throw it in

1271
00:46:32,630 --> 00:46:30,319
an acronym and then you kind of wrap a

1272
00:46:35,190 --> 00:46:32,640
little science around it you say it's

1273
00:46:37,270 --> 00:46:35,200
gonna come out in a peer review paper

1274
00:46:39,030 --> 00:46:37,280
which is good it's playing the game in a

1275
00:46:41,670 --> 00:46:39,040
way that i think we have to play the

1276
00:46:42,790 --> 00:46:41,680
science game we are we are all benefited

1277
00:46:48,069 --> 00:46:42,800
from

1278
00:46:50,470 --> 00:46:48,079
science and all the rest of that so i'm

1279
00:46:52,470 --> 00:46:50,480
down with that for to a certain extent

1280
00:46:55,990 --> 00:46:52,480
but it also then becomes

1281
00:46:58,470 --> 00:46:56,000
can become a little bit of a a way to

1282
00:47:00,790 --> 00:46:58,480
avoid what we're really talking about

1283
00:47:03,829 --> 00:47:00,800
here because we are talking about

1284
00:47:05,750 --> 00:47:03,839
something that we do not understand we

1285
00:47:08,470 --> 00:47:05,760
do not understand after death

1286
00:47:10,390 --> 00:47:08,480
communication we don't understand

1287
00:47:12,630 --> 00:47:10,400
the time we don't understand what that

1288
00:47:14,309 --> 00:47:12,640
means in terms of your dead and then

1289
00:47:17,270 --> 00:47:14,319
you're between lives and then you're

1290
00:47:20,069 --> 00:47:17,280
after death and then your reincarnation

1291
00:47:23,349 --> 00:47:20,079
we don't understand any of that so

1292
00:47:25,109 --> 00:47:23,359
are are we at risk here in jumping to

1293
00:47:27,270 --> 00:47:25,119
the iadc

1294
00:47:29,750 --> 00:47:27,280
okay we just put a name on it

1295
00:47:31,510 --> 00:47:29,760
as kind of pretending maybe that we

1296
00:47:32,549 --> 00:47:31,520
understand it a little bit more than we

1297
00:47:34,309 --> 00:47:32,559
do

1298
00:47:35,589 --> 00:47:34,319
i'm not sure how to answer that question

1299
00:47:39,589 --> 00:47:35,599
because

1300
00:47:42,710 --> 00:47:39,599
the question presupposes that we have to

1301
00:47:43,990 --> 00:47:42,720
i mean we know that a band-aid will stop

1302
00:47:46,069 --> 00:47:44,000
the bleeding

1303
00:47:47,910 --> 00:47:46,079
we don't necessarily have to know

1304
00:47:49,670 --> 00:47:47,920
what the substance is

1305
00:47:52,470 --> 00:47:49,680
but we know why a band-aid stops the

1306
00:47:56,870 --> 00:47:52,480
bleeding that's exactly that is exactly

1307
00:47:58,230 --> 00:47:56,880
the point and you know further well it's

1308
00:48:00,870 --> 00:47:58,240
it's not a good one it's like the other

1309
00:48:03,190 --> 00:48:00,880
ones in the in this in the in the movie

1310
00:48:05,109 --> 00:48:03,200
like religion religion i'll jump right

1311
00:48:06,470 --> 00:48:05,119
in there and you know again i don't know

1312
00:48:09,030 --> 00:48:06,480
how you did it

1313
00:48:11,430 --> 00:48:09,040
but people got to watch the film because

1314
00:48:13,349 --> 00:48:11,440
and again you do this trick whether it's

1315
00:48:14,630 --> 00:48:13,359
inadvertent or not where what's the

1316
00:48:17,270 --> 00:48:14,640
trick

1317
00:48:19,829 --> 00:48:17,280
well i was going to say where the

1318
00:48:23,270 --> 00:48:19,839
religious

1319
00:48:25,030 --> 00:48:23,280
kind of lack of awareness kind of person

1320
00:48:26,549 --> 00:48:25,040
whether they be the rabbi or the

1321
00:48:29,109 --> 00:48:26,559
christian

1322
00:48:30,150 --> 00:48:29,119
catholic guy or i forget who else you

1323
00:48:32,069 --> 00:48:30,160
have in there

1324
00:48:36,069 --> 00:48:32,079
they're talking to

1325
00:48:38,870 --> 00:48:36,079
people who are experiencing it and they

1326
00:48:41,270 --> 00:48:38,880
look particularly foolish because when

1327
00:48:43,829 --> 00:48:41,280
they're debating in another way that we

1328
00:48:45,829 --> 00:48:43,839
usually see these people they can sound

1329
00:48:47,910 --> 00:48:45,839
i don't know somewhat credible but in

1330
00:48:50,230 --> 00:48:47,920
here they look absolutely ridiculous and

1331
00:48:52,309 --> 00:48:50,240
then you have an expert come on and say

1332
00:48:54,790 --> 00:48:52,319
geez how can a guy say

1333
00:48:57,750 --> 00:48:54,800
that these experiences that no one

1334
00:48:59,589 --> 00:48:57,760
should consider or explore or

1335
00:49:01,510 --> 00:48:59,599
participate these experiences when

1336
00:49:04,309 --> 00:49:01,520
they're all over their holy books it's

1337
00:49:05,990 --> 00:49:04,319
just up and down one after another it's

1338
00:49:08,390 --> 00:49:06,000
just complete

1339
00:49:10,950 --> 00:49:08,400
social engineering control it it doesn't

1340
00:49:13,349 --> 00:49:10,960
look like anything else so

1341
00:49:14,870 --> 00:49:13,359
this gets back to this question of i

1342
00:49:18,069 --> 00:49:14,880
don't know how else you do it because

1343
00:49:19,910 --> 00:49:18,079
science is so mired in this materialism

1344
00:49:22,309 --> 00:49:19,920
and we can wave our arms throughout all

1345
00:49:24,549 --> 00:49:22,319
the progress that's been made but it

1346
00:49:26,950 --> 00:49:24,559
really doesn't amount too much so to

1347
00:49:28,870 --> 00:49:26,960
play the science game we have to play

1348
00:49:30,630 --> 00:49:28,880
like we have invented something or

1349
00:49:32,230 --> 00:49:30,640
there's something real here that we know

1350
00:49:34,390 --> 00:49:32,240
about when

1351
00:49:35,990 --> 00:49:34,400
we don't and that's okay but really

1352
00:49:38,549 --> 00:49:36,000
botkin's answer is completely

1353
00:49:40,069 --> 00:49:38,559
unsatisfactory to say we don't need to

1354
00:49:42,549 --> 00:49:40,079
understand it we don't need to

1355
00:49:45,030 --> 00:49:42,559
understand the causes of it we just need

1356
00:49:48,470 --> 00:49:45,040
we just need to measure it as this makes

1357
00:49:50,870 --> 00:49:48,480
people feel a little bit better

1358
00:49:52,069 --> 00:49:50,880
there there's a part of that that's

1359
00:49:53,910 --> 00:49:52,079
okay

1360
00:49:56,069 --> 00:49:53,920
but there's a part of that that from a

1361
00:49:59,270 --> 00:49:56,079
scientific standpoint is just severely

1362
00:50:00,630 --> 00:49:59,280
lacking in terms of scientific curiosity

1363
00:50:02,390 --> 00:50:00,640
let me tell you why i like his answer i

1364
00:50:04,150 --> 00:50:02,400
like his answer because he's saying to

1365
00:50:07,990 --> 00:50:04,160
these people

1366
00:50:09,910 --> 00:50:08,000
who am i to impose my beliefs onto my

1367
00:50:11,750 --> 00:50:09,920
patient or client

1368
00:50:14,069 --> 00:50:11,760
everyone has their own experience with

1369
00:50:15,349 --> 00:50:14,079
iadc or whatever therapy that they're

1370
00:50:17,589 --> 00:50:15,359
doing

1371
00:50:19,190 --> 00:50:17,599
and there's definitely parallels between

1372
00:50:20,309 --> 00:50:19,200
the experiences we can measure them and

1373
00:50:21,990 --> 00:50:20,319
we can come up with some kind of

1374
00:50:24,230 --> 00:50:22,000
theoretical conclusion as to what these

1375
00:50:26,309 --> 00:50:24,240
experience mean and there are people who

1376
00:50:28,309 --> 00:50:26,319
are i'm sure doing that but from his

1377
00:50:30,390 --> 00:50:28,319
perspective he's a who's a health care

1378
00:50:32,150 --> 00:50:30,400
professional he just wants people to

1379
00:50:33,990 --> 00:50:32,160
have the experience and draw their own

1380
00:50:35,750 --> 00:50:34,000
conclusion

1381
00:50:36,549 --> 00:50:35,760
that's fair isn't it

1382
00:50:41,910 --> 00:50:36,559
it's

1383
00:50:43,990 --> 00:50:41,920
we would expect someone in that

1384
00:50:46,230 --> 00:50:44,000
situation i mean i think again if you go

1385
00:50:49,030 --> 00:50:46,240
to jan holden i think she does a better

1386
00:50:50,950 --> 00:50:49,040
job of saying okay like her book which

1387
00:50:52,870 --> 00:50:50,960
is a very important book handbook of

1388
00:50:55,589 --> 00:50:52,880
near-death experiences

1389
00:50:58,710 --> 00:50:55,599
and she prepared that along with bruce

1390
00:51:00,950 --> 00:50:58,720
grayson primarily targeted at healthcare

1391
00:51:03,109 --> 00:51:00,960
professionals who were

1392
00:51:05,030 --> 00:51:03,119
dealing with people who were

1393
00:51:06,230 --> 00:51:05,040
recovering from a near-death experience

1394
00:51:08,150 --> 00:51:06,240
you know they're in a cardiac arrest

1395
00:51:11,109 --> 00:51:08,160
ward and they wake up and didn't know

1396
00:51:13,750 --> 00:51:11,119
how to explain it so she was like look

1397
00:51:16,309 --> 00:51:13,760
you don't need to be the rube in

1398
00:51:18,309 --> 00:51:16,319
steven's film who says a bunch of stupid

1399
00:51:20,710 --> 00:51:18,319
[\h__\h] that isn't true

1400
00:51:24,549 --> 00:51:20,720
you need to be educated so you can do

1401
00:51:27,270 --> 00:51:24,559
that so in that sense yeah but if you

1402
00:51:30,470 --> 00:51:27,280
ask jan about the deeper

1403
00:51:34,150 --> 00:51:30,480
philosophical and spiritual and

1404
00:51:36,630 --> 00:51:34,160
scientific implications of her work she

1405
00:51:38,549 --> 00:51:36,640
doesn't pull up short she doesn't say oh

1406
00:51:41,190 --> 00:51:38,559
well that's that's all we really need to

1407
00:51:42,309 --> 00:51:41,200
worry about she's more online with i

1408
00:51:45,430 --> 00:51:42,319
hope i'm not

1409
00:51:48,309 --> 00:51:45,440
over preaching but is like no man

1410
00:51:49,910 --> 00:51:48,319
science needs to deal with this stuff it

1411
00:51:52,790 --> 00:51:49,920
needs to deal with the fact that

1412
00:51:55,109 --> 00:51:52,800
consciousness is fundamental and yeah we

1413
00:51:57,349 --> 00:51:55,119
can help people out here because they're

1414
00:51:59,829 --> 00:51:57,359
so indoctrinated with this

1415
00:52:02,230 --> 00:51:59,839
dogmatic idea that completely limits

1416
00:52:03,750 --> 00:52:02,240
them yeah we can kind of

1417
00:52:06,390 --> 00:52:03,760
to use your metaphor put a little

1418
00:52:08,549 --> 00:52:06,400
band-aid on it but let's not pretend

1419
00:52:10,549 --> 00:52:08,559
like we've really addressed the

1420
00:52:12,630 --> 00:52:10,559
fundamental issue like in your film jeff

1421
00:52:13,589 --> 00:52:12,640
cripel does jeff kreppel goes look you

1422
00:52:15,670 --> 00:52:13,599
know

1423
00:52:17,349 --> 00:52:15,680
you want to play the scientism game you

1424
00:52:20,230 --> 00:52:17,359
want to play the brain is the

1425
00:52:22,630 --> 00:52:20,240
epiphenomenon or her consciousness is an

1426
00:52:25,349 --> 00:52:22,640
epiphenomenon of the brain you can say

1427
00:52:27,589 --> 00:52:25,359
it it just it isn't true it just like

1428
00:52:30,309 --> 00:52:27,599
jan says well you could say it the

1429
00:52:32,390 --> 00:52:30,319
research just doesn't support it so bot

1430
00:52:34,790 --> 00:52:32,400
can get can get pushed into a corner and

1431
00:52:36,470 --> 00:52:34,800
say well let's just you know maybe this

1432
00:52:37,589 --> 00:52:36,480
will help you know these people kind of

1433
00:52:39,510 --> 00:52:37,599
thing

1434
00:52:41,750 --> 00:52:39,520
that's fine but it doesn't really

1435
00:52:42,790 --> 00:52:41,760
address the deeper questions yeah yeah

1436
00:52:44,630 --> 00:52:42,800
well that's what your whole show is

1437
00:52:45,589 --> 00:52:44,640
about right you want to move that needle

1438
00:52:47,190 --> 00:52:45,599
forward

1439
00:52:49,190 --> 00:52:47,200
with in science

1440
00:52:51,829 --> 00:52:49,200
and where parkins coming from and

1441
00:52:53,829 --> 00:52:51,839
perhaps where i'm coming from as well is

1442
00:52:57,030 --> 00:52:53,839
more of a just helping people kind of a

1443
00:52:59,910 --> 00:52:57,040
place and it would be nice for people to

1444
00:53:01,910 --> 00:52:59,920
have that scientific support so they

1445
00:53:03,349 --> 00:53:01,920
don't have to lie to their friends as to

1446
00:53:05,190 --> 00:53:03,359
what they're doing that would be

1447
00:53:05,990 --> 00:53:05,200
wonderful and that would help

1448
00:53:08,390 --> 00:53:06,000
but

1449
00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:08,400
that's where what's not

1450
00:53:11,510 --> 00:53:10,240
like what joe dispenza says in the film

1451
00:53:13,829 --> 00:53:11,520
where he says

1452
00:53:16,150 --> 00:53:13,839
we have to do what feels good for us and

1453
00:53:19,829 --> 00:53:16,160
science has to catch up to where we are

1454
00:53:19,839 --> 00:53:23,109
why are you shaking your head

1455
00:53:23,119 --> 00:53:27,430
so what if one of those

1456
00:53:31,990 --> 00:53:29,589
what if one of those cultish religious

1457
00:53:34,150 --> 00:53:32,000
guys said the same thing

1458
00:53:35,910 --> 00:53:34,160
said hey steven they don't they don't

1459
00:53:37,349 --> 00:53:35,920
need to go down there

1460
00:53:39,829 --> 00:53:37,359
send them in send them into my

1461
00:53:42,549 --> 00:53:39,839
confessional i'll make them feel better

1462
00:53:44,630 --> 00:53:42,559
i'll make them i'll make them feel

1463
00:53:46,710 --> 00:53:44,640
the blood of jesus coursing through

1464
00:53:49,109 --> 00:53:46,720
their vein and that somehow i'll go

1465
00:53:52,230 --> 00:53:49,119
through this weekend retreat and you

1466
00:53:53,750 --> 00:53:52,240
know we'll take them to this mormon guy

1467
00:53:55,750 --> 00:53:53,760
there's all sorts of people say they can

1468
00:53:57,670 --> 00:53:55,760
make it feel better

1469
00:53:58,870 --> 00:53:57,680
underneath science

1470
00:54:00,390 --> 00:53:58,880
you want science to hold them

1471
00:54:01,750 --> 00:54:00,400
accountable

1472
00:54:05,349 --> 00:54:01,760
i want us

1473
00:54:08,069 --> 00:54:05,359
to hold everyone accountable just based

1474
00:54:10,790 --> 00:54:08,079
on common sense logic that we know and

1475
00:54:11,910 --> 00:54:10,800
many signs catch up to us

1476
00:54:13,430 --> 00:54:11,920
right

1477
00:54:15,030 --> 00:54:13,440
i'm saying the same thing

1478
00:54:16,630 --> 00:54:15,040
well i don't think you're saying the

1479
00:54:19,190 --> 00:54:16,640
same thing because

1480
00:54:22,150 --> 00:54:19,200
you know i think when botkin says

1481
00:54:24,870 --> 00:54:22,160
you know i'm just interested in

1482
00:54:27,109 --> 00:54:24,880
making people feel better

1483
00:54:29,589 --> 00:54:27,119
again i'm just tracing the same ground

1484
00:54:31,829 --> 00:54:29,599
like if botkin wants to say i'm just

1485
00:54:32,790 --> 00:54:31,839
interested in helping this class of

1486
00:54:35,589 --> 00:54:32,800
people

1487
00:54:37,910 --> 00:54:35,599
deal better with this particular health

1488
00:54:39,510 --> 00:54:37,920
problem that they have which is severe

1489
00:54:41,349 --> 00:54:39,520
chronic grief

1490
00:54:42,870 --> 00:54:41,359
that's fine

1491
00:54:45,030 --> 00:54:42,880
because the problem stephen is science

1492
00:54:47,109 --> 00:54:45,040
can't really handle this

1493
00:54:49,510 --> 00:54:47,119
at the end of the day you can't when you

1494
00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:49,520
say science will catch up

1495
00:54:54,309 --> 00:54:52,400
no science will not catch up

1496
00:54:56,230 --> 00:54:54,319
i think we're forcing science we're

1497
00:54:57,990 --> 00:54:56,240
forcing science to look at something

1498
00:54:58,950 --> 00:54:58,000
that we've we've discovered

1499
00:55:01,589 --> 00:54:58,960
but

1500
00:55:03,990 --> 00:55:01,599
not not really i mean to kind of switch

1501
00:55:07,270 --> 00:55:04,000
into the philosophy of science science

1502
00:55:08,470 --> 00:55:07,280
depends on the idea that the world is

1503
00:55:10,630 --> 00:55:08,480
out there

1504
00:55:12,950 --> 00:55:10,640
and we can measure the world

1505
00:55:14,470 --> 00:55:12,960
and we can reliably measure the world

1506
00:55:16,630 --> 00:55:14,480
and that there's this kind of

1507
00:55:17,510 --> 00:55:16,640
continuation of time and all this other

1508
00:55:20,390 --> 00:55:17,520
stuff

1509
00:55:22,549 --> 00:55:20,400
if what we're finding is that those

1510
00:55:26,069 --> 00:55:22,559
fundamental assumptions aren't true

1511
00:55:28,069 --> 00:55:26,079
then we can't really expect science to

1512
00:55:29,349 --> 00:55:28,079
really tackle that

1513
00:55:31,430 --> 00:55:29,359
let me let me ask you this i'm not sure

1514
00:55:33,430 --> 00:55:31,440
if this is on point or not

1515
00:55:35,829 --> 00:55:33,440
quantum physics has been around for a

1516
00:55:38,309 --> 00:55:35,839
while it's doing something very

1517
00:55:39,349 --> 00:55:38,319
different than the science of of newton

1518
00:55:40,630 --> 00:55:39,359
right

1519
00:55:42,789 --> 00:55:40,640
so

1520
00:55:44,230 --> 00:55:42,799
why hasn't the needle moved farther

1521
00:55:47,190 --> 00:55:44,240
along

1522
00:55:48,950 --> 00:55:47,200
my fundamental understanding

1523
00:55:51,030 --> 00:55:48,960
and this is not where i was at at the

1524
00:55:53,190 --> 00:55:51,040
beginning of skeptico but it is

1525
00:55:56,150 --> 00:55:53,200
certainly where i'm at now

1526
00:55:57,910 --> 00:55:56,160
is that there is a strong motivation to

1527
00:56:00,950 --> 00:55:57,920
not move the needle

1528
00:56:03,910 --> 00:56:00,960
and that people who are aware of their

1529
00:56:06,309 --> 00:56:03,920
expanded consciousness their connection

1530
00:56:08,710 --> 00:56:06,319
to the divine because we haven't even

1531
00:56:11,270 --> 00:56:08,720
talked about any of that this isn't just

1532
00:56:14,150 --> 00:56:11,280
talking to dead people

1533
00:56:17,829 --> 00:56:14,160
this is about connecting to

1534
00:56:22,069 --> 00:56:17,839
a love a glow a light if you will

1535
00:56:24,710 --> 00:56:22,079
that transcends all human experience

1536
00:56:27,589 --> 00:56:24,720
and i think that there's a lot of people

1537
00:56:29,910 --> 00:56:27,599
who have a vested interest in

1538
00:56:32,390 --> 00:56:29,920
being the intermediary between you and

1539
00:56:34,549 --> 00:56:32,400
that light religion has a motivation for

1540
00:56:36,950 --> 00:56:34,559
doing that certainly they don't want you

1541
00:56:38,470 --> 00:56:36,960
experiencing the light experiencing god

1542
00:56:40,230 --> 00:56:38,480
directly they want to be the

1543
00:56:41,670 --> 00:56:40,240
intermediary they want to say come

1544
00:56:43,829 --> 00:56:41,680
through me you got any of that

1545
00:56:45,670 --> 00:56:43,839
experience you're on the forest you saw

1546
00:56:48,309 --> 00:56:45,680
you felt the light you felt that

1547
00:56:49,670 --> 00:56:48,319
expanded consciousness no no no no come

1548
00:56:50,710 --> 00:56:49,680
back here just like the guy does in your

1549
00:56:53,510 --> 00:56:50,720
film he goes

1550
00:56:56,470 --> 00:56:53,520
no no no no all of that

1551
00:56:58,470 --> 00:56:56,480
no don't go there don't go there that is

1552
00:57:00,630 --> 00:56:58,480
it's criminally

1553
00:57:02,549 --> 00:57:00,640
criminally criminally

1554
00:57:05,030 --> 00:57:02,559
insanely

1555
00:57:07,589 --> 00:57:05,040
negligent and bigoted and science is

1556
00:57:09,349 --> 00:57:07,599
doing the same thing science is saying

1557
00:57:12,230 --> 00:57:09,359
you're a biological robot in a

1558
00:57:14,789 --> 00:57:12,240
meaningless universe how dare you think

1559
00:57:17,190 --> 00:57:14,799
that that you could have anything more

1560
00:57:20,390 --> 00:57:17,200
in this life just do what the [\h__\h] we

1561
00:57:21,430 --> 00:57:20,400
say put on the mask take the jab to get

1562
00:57:26,630 --> 00:57:21,440
your

1563
00:57:28,870 --> 00:57:26,640
credit card but don't ever for a minute

1564
00:57:32,150 --> 00:57:28,880
think that you're more than

1565
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:32,160
just biology

1566
00:57:38,150 --> 00:57:35,330
well said i could agree with you more

1567
00:57:40,309 --> 00:57:38,160
[Laughter]

1568
00:57:42,630 --> 00:57:40,319
so this film is great for all the

1569
00:57:45,190 --> 00:57:42,640
reasons i said but i don't know that we

1570
00:57:47,589 --> 00:57:45,200
really i kind of got us off track with

1571
00:57:49,270 --> 00:57:47,599
the story arc what don't you like

1572
00:57:50,069 --> 00:57:49,280
there's nothing i didn't like about this

1573
00:57:51,829 --> 00:57:50,079
film

1574
00:57:54,789 --> 00:57:51,839
i thought it was really great

1575
00:57:56,870 --> 00:57:54,799
it was shot beautifully done beautifully

1576
00:57:58,710 --> 00:57:56,880
the story carries there's no narration

1577
00:58:00,630 --> 00:57:58,720
and the story just goes

1578
00:58:01,990 --> 00:58:00,640
but again let me return because i don't

1579
00:58:05,270 --> 00:58:02,000
think i gave you a chance to really

1580
00:58:07,270 --> 00:58:05,280
fully talk about it the the story arc is

1581
00:58:09,270 --> 00:58:07,280
is really really

1582
00:58:11,190 --> 00:58:09,280
meaningful it's meaningful to the people

1583
00:58:13,190 --> 00:58:11,200
involved but it's also meaningful for

1584
00:58:14,470 --> 00:58:13,200
the movie and i think it's obviously

1585
00:58:16,230 --> 00:58:14,480
where you're really trying to go with

1586
00:58:17,270 --> 00:58:16,240
this film and how you're trying to touch

1587
00:58:18,870 --> 00:58:17,280
people

1588
00:58:21,109 --> 00:58:18,880
tell us about that

1589
00:58:24,230 --> 00:58:21,119
you know it's funny i my my partner

1590
00:58:26,630 --> 00:58:24,240
christopher asked me

1591
00:58:28,309 --> 00:58:26,640
why did i why was i making the film

1592
00:58:29,430 --> 00:58:28,319
and i thought about it i gave him one

1593
00:58:31,750 --> 00:58:29,440
answer then i gave him a different

1594
00:58:33,589 --> 00:58:31,760
answer than i slept on and i

1595
00:58:35,270 --> 00:58:33,599
we talked the next day and he said

1596
00:58:37,270 --> 00:58:35,280
i think i think i might have something

1597
00:58:39,430 --> 00:58:37,280
to do with my father i'm not sure but i

1598
00:58:41,750 --> 00:58:39,440
think i might be doing it for him

1599
00:58:44,390 --> 00:58:41,760
and christopher said we all do it for

1600
00:58:47,990 --> 00:58:46,630
anyway um

1601
00:58:49,270 --> 00:58:48,000
you know

1602
00:58:52,230 --> 00:58:49,280
i'm not sure if this answers your

1603
00:58:53,030 --> 00:58:52,240
question but

1604
00:58:55,030 --> 00:58:53,040
i

1605
00:58:56,950 --> 00:58:55,040
really wanted to help my mom

1606
00:58:58,549 --> 00:58:56,960
and i was

1607
00:59:00,870 --> 00:58:58,559
really just

1608
00:59:02,710 --> 00:59:00,880
i was i really was infuriated with a

1609
00:59:04,549 --> 00:59:02,720
grief counselor and

1610
00:59:06,470 --> 00:59:04,559
i knew that people

1611
00:59:09,109 --> 00:59:06,480
would just feel a lot better

1612
00:59:09,990 --> 00:59:09,119
if they felt if they believed they had

1613
00:59:12,230 --> 00:59:10,000
hope

1614
00:59:14,309 --> 00:59:12,240
that there was something that

1615
00:59:15,670 --> 00:59:14,319
went on to another realm

1616
00:59:17,990 --> 00:59:15,680
and

1617
00:59:19,990 --> 00:59:18,000
i just wanted to support the people in

1618
00:59:20,950 --> 00:59:20,000
my mother's community who had that

1619
00:59:22,870 --> 00:59:20,960
belief

1620
00:59:24,870 --> 00:59:22,880
i didn't want

1621
00:59:26,390 --> 00:59:24,880
let me go to the dsm for a second so you

1622
00:59:28,789 --> 00:59:26,400
have a sophisticated audience they know

1623
00:59:30,390 --> 00:59:28,799
what the dsm is i would assume but go

1624
00:59:32,549 --> 00:59:30,400
ahead it never hurts

1625
00:59:33,829 --> 00:59:32,559
diagnostic and statistical manual for is

1626
00:59:35,270 --> 00:59:33,839
it mental health disorder something

1627
00:59:38,470 --> 00:59:35,280
along those lines which doctors

1628
00:59:40,630 --> 00:59:38,480
referenced uh on a daily basis

1629
00:59:43,589 --> 00:59:40,640
there's a section on there called the

1630
00:59:44,630 --> 00:59:43,599
hallucinations of bereavement

1631
00:59:46,950 --> 00:59:44,640
alex

1632
00:59:48,230 --> 00:59:46,960
what would you call a hallucination of

1633
00:59:50,150 --> 00:59:48,240
bereavement would you would you say that

1634
00:59:52,390 --> 00:59:50,160
was an oxymoron

1635
00:59:54,069 --> 00:59:52,400
could you make sense of that phrase

1636
00:59:55,589 --> 00:59:54,079
how could something be

1637
00:59:57,349 --> 00:59:55,599
normal and

1638
01:00:00,630 --> 00:59:57,359
and hallucination

1639
01:00:02,230 --> 01:00:00,640
so that's in the dsm and it says okay

1640
01:00:05,349 --> 01:00:02,240
these are normal

1641
01:00:08,069 --> 01:00:05,359
don't pathologize them

1642
01:00:10,470 --> 01:00:08,079
and 50 years ago right we find this guy

1643
01:00:12,549 --> 01:00:10,480
dewey reese did this study found out

1644
01:00:14,309 --> 01:00:12,559
that half the people had these things

1645
01:00:16,390 --> 01:00:14,319
so why on earth are we still

1646
01:00:19,030 --> 01:00:16,400
pathologizing them

1647
01:00:21,510 --> 01:00:19,040
so yes these healthcare professionals

1648
01:00:23,510 --> 01:00:21,520
are derelict in their duties they should

1649
01:00:25,430 --> 01:00:23,520
know about this science because it's

1650
01:00:28,230 --> 01:00:25,440
already half a century old

1651
01:00:30,069 --> 01:00:28,240
so it doesn't really make sense that

1652
01:00:31,829 --> 01:00:30,079
they're not looking there

1653
01:00:34,870 --> 01:00:31,839
and it is

1654
01:00:36,950 --> 01:00:34,880
reprehensible i would i would say for

1655
01:00:39,030 --> 01:00:36,960
the psychiatrist in the fam in the film

1656
01:00:40,230 --> 01:00:39,040
who i defended earlier now i'm kind of

1657
01:00:42,950 --> 01:00:40,240
getting on

1658
01:00:45,190 --> 01:00:42,960
the train and saying yeah he should know

1659
01:00:46,309 --> 01:00:45,200
this is normal and it's actually helpful

1660
01:00:47,910 --> 01:00:46,319
to most people who have these

1661
01:00:48,630 --> 01:00:47,920
experiences

1662
01:00:51,349 --> 01:00:48,640
so

1663
01:00:53,670 --> 01:00:51,359
i'm delighted that i've uncovered this

1664
01:00:55,430 --> 01:00:53,680
in my own research i'm delighted that i

1665
01:00:57,910 --> 01:00:55,440
could share it in a kind of an

1666
01:00:59,349 --> 01:00:57,920
entertaining way and what was the most

1667
01:01:01,190 --> 01:00:59,359
important thing for me when making this

1668
01:01:04,069 --> 01:01:01,200
film is that

1669
01:01:05,990 --> 01:01:04,079
i wanted to make a mainstream movie

1670
01:01:07,030 --> 01:01:06,000
i wanted to i wanted i didn't want to

1671
01:01:09,430 --> 01:01:07,040
just

1672
01:01:11,190 --> 01:01:09,440
preach to the choir i wanted to speak to

1673
01:01:14,069 --> 01:01:11,200
people on the fence because that's where

1674
01:01:16,390 --> 01:01:14,079
i was 10 years ago i was on the fence

1675
01:01:18,470 --> 01:01:16,400
and

1676
01:01:20,309 --> 01:01:18,480
that's why i try to stride out that line

1677
01:01:22,950 --> 01:01:20,319
again that's why i just wanted to kind

1678
01:01:25,109 --> 01:01:22,960
of show both sides have real people

1679
01:01:26,470 --> 01:01:25,119
having real experiences having real

1680
01:01:28,390 --> 01:01:26,480
pundits talk about what these

1681
01:01:31,349 --> 01:01:28,400
experiences could mean yes i was

1682
01:01:32,789 --> 01:01:31,359
contrasting them and at times i was

1683
01:01:34,230 --> 01:01:32,799
making certain

1684
01:01:36,549 --> 01:01:34,240
perhaps

1685
01:01:39,829 --> 01:01:36,559
purposefully by accident making some of

1686
01:01:41,109 --> 01:01:39,839
the speakers look a little foolish but

1687
01:01:42,710 --> 01:01:41,119
i think what i was i've been

1688
01:01:45,109 --> 01:01:42,720
complimented for this and i and i'm

1689
01:01:47,270 --> 01:01:45,119
proud of the fact that i have respect

1690
01:01:49,190 --> 01:01:47,280
for everyone who spoke in the film i

1691
01:01:50,309 --> 01:01:49,200
respect for their their industry that

1692
01:01:52,630 --> 01:01:50,319
they're in

1693
01:01:53,829 --> 01:01:52,640
and i don't want to portray anybody like

1694
01:01:56,150 --> 01:01:53,839
a clown

1695
01:01:58,069 --> 01:01:56,160
so i i unders i respect your opinion i'm

1696
01:01:59,910 --> 01:01:58,079
actually delighted that you have a

1697
01:02:01,109 --> 01:01:59,920
strong reaction to some of the speakers

1698
01:02:03,430 --> 01:02:01,119
in the film

1699
01:02:05,190 --> 01:02:03,440
i share your opinion in some in a

1700
01:02:08,549 --> 01:02:05,200
smaller way i share your opinion very

1701
01:02:10,309 --> 01:02:08,559
often but i i do

1702
01:02:12,230 --> 01:02:10,319
respect everyone in it

1703
01:02:14,710 --> 01:02:12,240
great i will just mention no one comes

1704
01:02:16,630 --> 01:02:14,720
through as a clown no one comes through

1705
01:02:20,309 --> 01:02:16,640
as someone who's being

1706
01:02:22,870 --> 01:02:20,319
kind of set up in any way and that's to

1707
01:02:24,309 --> 01:02:22,880
your to your credit definitely so

1708
01:02:26,470 --> 01:02:24,319
stephen where

1709
01:02:28,630 --> 01:02:26,480
where will you go with the film how will

1710
01:02:30,630 --> 01:02:28,640
you get this out to

1711
01:02:34,150 --> 01:02:30,640
you know people who who need to see it

1712
01:02:35,510 --> 01:02:34,160
because as you just said quite perfectly

1713
01:02:36,870 --> 01:02:35,520
eloquently

1714
01:02:39,750 --> 01:02:36,880
there's a lot of people

1715
01:02:42,630 --> 01:02:39,760
who will see this and will take direct

1716
01:02:44,950 --> 01:02:42,640
action that will make their life better

1717
01:02:45,829 --> 01:02:44,960
they'll see it they'll help a family

1718
01:02:49,029 --> 01:02:45,839
member

1719
01:02:51,029 --> 01:02:49,039
take action that will make their life

1720
01:02:53,270 --> 01:02:51,039
better

1721
01:02:54,710 --> 01:02:53,280
i'm glad you asked that question

1722
01:02:55,589 --> 01:02:54,720
right now it's in the film festival

1723
01:02:57,109 --> 01:02:55,599
circuit

1724
01:02:59,750 --> 01:02:57,119
where as you pointed out earlier it's

1725
01:03:02,069 --> 01:02:59,760
done very well great it's won best film

1726
01:03:03,910 --> 01:03:02,079
and uh best feature in two different

1727
01:03:06,390 --> 01:03:03,920
film festivals so that's that's a great

1728
01:03:07,670 --> 01:03:06,400
feather in my filmmaking cap but in

1729
01:03:10,549 --> 01:03:07,680
terms of getting out to the people

1730
01:03:11,349 --> 01:03:10,559
that's really my my main priority

1731
01:04:08,470 --> 01:03:11,359
i

1732
01:04:11,109 --> 01:04:08,480
ask me how you can host an event

1733
01:04:13,670 --> 01:04:11,119
yeah i i think that's terrific and i can

1734
01:04:16,549 --> 01:04:13,680
imagine people setting up little groups

1735
01:04:19,029 --> 01:04:16,559
to do viewings of this among you know

1736
01:04:20,230 --> 01:04:19,039
groups who are interested in it so yeah

1737
01:04:22,390 --> 01:04:20,240
we'll definitely have a link where

1738
01:04:25,589 --> 01:04:22,400
people can go and you can then contact

1739
01:04:27,829 --> 01:04:25,599
steven and make that happen so best of

1740
01:04:29,589 --> 01:04:27,839
luck with all that it's really really is

1741
01:04:31,510 --> 01:04:29,599
a great movie and i i hope people it's

1742
01:04:33,029 --> 01:04:31,520
not that hard i mean to to find they can

1743
01:04:34,630 --> 01:04:33,039
also just contact you

1744
01:04:36,630 --> 01:04:34,640
can't they just give you 10 bucks and

1745
01:04:38,470 --> 01:04:36,640
watch it kind of thing

1746
01:04:40,870 --> 01:04:38,480
they will be able to do that soon

1747
01:04:42,630 --> 01:04:40,880
unfortunately it's got to be a part of a

1748
01:04:44,710 --> 01:04:42,640
private event or they have to come to me

1749
01:04:46,630 --> 01:04:44,720
privately so if you want to write to me

1750
01:04:48,470 --> 01:04:46,640
and get on my on my list so i can invite

1751
01:04:51,510 --> 01:04:48,480
you to a private event i i can do that

1752
01:04:53,430 --> 01:04:51,520
for you but yeah if you contact steven

1753
01:04:55,510 --> 01:04:53,440
if you contact stephen you'll figure out

1754
01:04:58,230 --> 01:04:55,520
how to do it and if you want to donate

1755
01:04:59,829 --> 01:04:58,240
to this cause which i

1756
01:05:02,309 --> 01:04:59,839
i promise even because i will because

1757
01:05:04,230 --> 01:05:02,319
it's important i definitely am doing in

1758
01:05:06,069 --> 01:05:04,240
general i mean the more

1759
01:05:07,190 --> 01:05:06,079
awareness he can bring to this it's just

1760
01:05:09,109 --> 01:05:07,200
a very

1761
01:05:12,150 --> 01:05:09,119
i want to say it's a it's a direct

1762
01:05:13,750 --> 01:05:12,160
indirect way of kind of helping people

1763
01:05:16,309 --> 01:05:13,760
but alex why are they donating i forgot

1764
01:05:17,589 --> 01:05:16,319
to mention pbs i'm trying to get a pbs

1765
01:05:19,750 --> 01:05:17,599
broadcast

1766
01:05:21,990 --> 01:05:19,760
sometime around halloween of

1767
01:05:24,230 --> 01:05:22,000
this coming year this year so halloween

1768
01:05:25,750 --> 01:05:24,240
of 2022 i'm hoping to get it on pbs

1769
01:05:27,910 --> 01:05:25,760
they've already seen the film they like

1770
01:05:29,430 --> 01:05:27,920
it i just don't have a firm commitment

1771
01:05:31,990 --> 01:05:29,440
yet but when i do get that firm

1772
01:05:33,670 --> 01:05:32,000
commitment i'm going to need money

1773
01:05:35,430 --> 01:05:33,680
to pay off

1774
01:05:37,349 --> 01:05:35,440
the what is it called the presenting

1775
01:05:40,230 --> 01:05:37,359
station fee i also i'm going to have to

1776
01:05:42,069 --> 01:05:40,240
recut it to be beat pbs standards that's

1777
01:05:44,390 --> 01:05:42,079
going to cost some bucks which i'm out

1778
01:05:46,390 --> 01:05:44,400
of i spent all my money on the film i

1779
01:05:48,630 --> 01:05:46,400
did not save any for distribution that

1780
01:05:50,870 --> 01:05:48,640
was a foolish rookie mistake filmmakers

1781
01:05:53,589 --> 01:05:50,880
are not supposed to do that i did that

1782
01:05:56,230 --> 01:05:53,599
whoops so i am looking for donations to

1783
01:05:57,430 --> 01:05:56,240
help me get it on pbs in the fall and i

1784
01:05:59,349 --> 01:05:57,440
also want to say while i have this

1785
01:06:01,829 --> 01:05:59,359
opportunity alex that you helped me out

1786
01:06:03,990 --> 01:06:01,839
quite a bit in terms of the your program

1787
01:06:05,829 --> 01:06:04,000
skeptical was a huge part of my research

1788
01:06:07,910 --> 01:06:05,839
skeptica was also a huge part of my

1789
01:06:09,990 --> 01:06:07,920
finding the people i wanted to speak in

1790
01:06:13,190 --> 01:06:10,000
this film i could have called this film

1791
01:06:15,510 --> 01:06:13,200
skeptico the movie i didn't but i could

1792
01:06:18,069 --> 01:06:15,520
have so thank you very much for you your

1793
01:06:20,710 --> 01:06:18,079
program the speakers you've had they've

1794
01:06:22,630 --> 01:06:20,720
been very educational uh that's super

1795
01:06:25,430 --> 01:06:22,640
super nice of you to say i i am

1796
01:06:28,549 --> 01:06:25,440
delighted that i could play you know

1797
01:06:30,150 --> 01:06:28,559
that connector role in this so great

1798
01:06:33,109 --> 01:06:30,160
great glad to

1799
01:06:35,109 --> 01:06:33,119
have been there steven best of luck with

1800
01:06:37,589 --> 01:06:35,119
this important film

1801
01:06:41,029 --> 01:06:37,599
living with ghosts make sure you check

1802
01:06:43,349 --> 01:06:41,039
it out and uh you'll have to uh we'll

1803
01:06:46,230 --> 01:06:43,359
have to reconnect you know maybe

1804
01:06:48,390 --> 01:06:46,240
this fall next fall yeah this fall you

1805
01:06:49,829 --> 01:06:48,400
know when it's kind of rounding out

1806
01:06:52,069 --> 01:06:49,839
we'll come back and see where this is

1807
01:06:53,910 --> 01:06:52,079
going because i got a feeling

1808
01:06:56,549 --> 01:06:53,920
you are going to be

1809
01:06:58,470 --> 01:06:56,559
a kind of a go-to person

1810
01:07:01,029 --> 01:06:58,480
in this very important field so let's

1811
01:07:03,589 --> 01:07:01,039
stay in touch right my pleasure alex

1812
01:07:05,270 --> 01:07:03,599
thank you thank you for having me

1813
01:07:07,270 --> 01:07:05,280
thanks again to stephen berkley for

1814
01:07:09,349 --> 01:07:07,280
joining me today on skeptico the one

1815
01:07:12,390 --> 01:07:09,359
question i t up from this interview

1816
01:07:14,630 --> 01:07:12,400
slightly off topic but not really what

1817
01:07:17,829 --> 01:07:14,640
are the implications of these extended

1818
01:07:19,430 --> 01:07:17,839
consciousness technologies so think back

1819
01:07:20,870 --> 01:07:19,440
about your trauma let me tap on your

1820
01:07:23,670 --> 01:07:20,880
hands and boof

1821
01:07:26,230 --> 01:07:23,680
something happens something changes

1822
01:07:29,109 --> 01:07:26,240
what are we supposed to think that means

1823
01:07:29,910 --> 01:07:29,119
about consciousness about our place in

1824
01:07:33,029 --> 01:07:29,920
this

1825
01:07:35,029 --> 01:07:33,039
extended consciousness realm

1826
01:07:37,270 --> 01:07:35,039
let me know your thoughts as always love

1827
01:07:40,549 --> 01:07:37,280
to hear from you

1828
01:07:43,109 --> 01:07:40,559
good or bad let it hang out there

1829
01:07:44,309 --> 01:07:43,119
so much more to come stay with me for

1830
01:07:46,549 --> 01:07:44,319
all of that

1831
01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:46,559
until next time take care

1832
01:08:02,480 --> 01:07:48,890
and bye for now